charic Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Ah RTFM fair enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 And you are correct google is my friend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalmetal Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) [quote name='charic' post='1102184' date='Jan 25 2011, 02:39 PM']Quick slight OT. My amp (RH450) has a good DI out and I don't want it to get Phantom Fried. Is there any kind of safety buffer I could put in between? Something to absorb the phantom power should it be active on the desk.[/quote] Correct me if im wrong someone, but a Transformer blanced DI as opposed to a electronicly balanced DI should isolate you, so perhaps throw a transformer balanced passive DI box between ? *EDIT* Sorry didnt see the RTFM bit Edited January 25, 2011 by digitalmetal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumnote Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 [quote name='charic' post='1102194' date='Jan 25 2011, 02:45 PM']Ah RTFM fair enough[/quote] Wise to check though, I had that problem a few years ago with an amp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 [quote name='DanOwens' post='1102179' date='Jan 25 2011, 02:36 PM']....We've all got our own way of being happy. Mine is to just chillaximum and accept that if the sound guy's good he'll get a good sound using his own methods and if the sound guy is crap then it doesn't matter where he takes a DI feed from, it'll sound crap anyway....[/quote] +1 Exactly. A good sound engineer will get you a good sound. And from what I've seen on some gigs the sound guy gets a much better sound than the band gets on its own! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nash Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 [quote name='cheddatom' post='1101892' date='Jan 25 2011, 11:21 AM']I always got the soundman to mic my amp(s) in addition to his DI straight from the bass. I would politely ask that he just use the DI for the low end, and most of them seemed to oblige.[/quote] havent read the rest of the thread but as an on/off sound guy and bassist this is the best way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 [quote name='DanOwens' post='1102179' date='Jan 25 2011, 02:36 PM']I play in a very busy band ([b]Our synth player likes 5/6 channels and our vibraphone player has constant feedback issues[/b]) as such, I've grown to be not too fussy about things. I've taken my own engineer out with various projects and even then there are issues with time and the house PA. We've all got our own way of being happy. Mine is to just chillaximum and accept that if the sound guy's good he'll get a good sound using his own methods and if the sound guy is crap then it doesn't matter where he takes a DI feed from, it'll sound crap anyway. Dan[/quote] Sounds like "soundguy hell" right there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanOwens Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) [quote name='51m0n' post='1102248' date='Jan 25 2011, 03:33 PM']Sounds like "soundguy hell" right there![/quote] You've no idea. We've built a perspex box to put our vibraphone player in but that's not without its problems. I use 5 channels of audio for the bass but sum them before sending them to the desk. I've started another thread in 'Effects' [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=120097&st=0&gopid=1102261&#entry1102261"]HERE[/url] regarding DIing and effects in parallel. Dan Edited January 25, 2011 by DanOwens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 [quote name='DanOwens' post='1102263' date='Jan 25 2011, 03:45 PM']You've no idea. We've built a perspex box to put our vibraphone player in but that's not without its problems. I use 5 channels of audio for the bass but sum them before sending them to the desk. I've started another thread in 'Effects' [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=120097&st=0&gopid=1102261&#entry1102261"]HERE[/url] regarding DIing and effects in parallel. Dan[/quote] Best place for a vibes player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 [quote name='digitalmetal' post='1102147' date='Jan 25 2011, 02:13 PM']3)All i want, is for me not to sound like an awful Mark King Tribute player full of pop and twang, i dont want any of that sound (thats not the sound coming from my amp and id like it to go somewhere near to resemble that sound to the crowd). il just have to be double extreme with my bass, onboard preamp.[/quote] If you don't want a trebly sound, why not just roll off the top end on your bass rather than doing all the eq work on your amp? Would it not make sense to get your sound as close as possible to how you want it [i]before[/i] it reaches your amp, and just use the rig to do the final tweaking and add the growly stuff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 [quote name='DanOwens' post='1102263' date='Jan 25 2011, 03:45 PM']....We've built a perspex box to put our vibraphone player in....[/quote] You need a greenhouse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalmetal Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 Yes thats what i meant when i said "il just have to be double extreme with my bass, onboard preamp" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endorka Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) [quote name='digitalmetal' post='1102315' date='Jan 25 2011, 04:30 PM']Yes thats what i meant when i said "il just have to be double extreme with my bass, onboard preamp"[/quote] You have to be careful with this. If the sound engineer has a certain bass sound he is aiming for, and you adjust your EQ further away from this, he may well just adjust his EQ in the other direction to compensate. This push/pull of frequencies is not good for the quality of your tone, and could end up making it even worse in the front of house than if you had supplied the soundman with a neutral tone. As others have said, the only real answer is communication with the soundman, and you may have to compromise depending on the PA equipment and acoustics of the room, for example. Many, many rooms to do work well with low frequencies. In my experience, a very bassy sound does not usually work in venues; a good bass sound is usually found in the mids, and some high frequencies are necessary for your sound to sit well in the mix. You should also keep in mind that there are some battles you will never win, perhaps due to poor soundmen or acoustics. It is usually better for your state of mind and health to accept this, rather than hit your head off a brick wall. Other people have advised you to walk a mile in a soundman's shoes to get perspective from their point of view; this is good advice. Jennifer Edited January 25, 2011 by endorka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 On the one day a year when I do a gig big enough to need to play through a rig, I don't care Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) Although Jennifer's comments are perfectly valid, and probably represent a more mature attitude, I have found myself banging my head against the proverbial brick wall on a couple of occasions. Once a soundman said "you're not using THAT EQ" and then started to mess with the EQ on my amp. Another guy wouldn't let me use my rig at all. I think they're both pretty unreasonable situations and i'm sure there are many more examples. Edited January 25, 2011 by cheddatom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thodrik Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Simply put, if there are only three bands playing and we are the headline band and are ordered to turn up several hours before a gig for a soundcheck, I would expect a bit better than just a DI box awaiting me! Playing in a three piece band most of the time with bass, drums and guitar, its not like our set ups require the soundguy to spend ages with a horn section, keyboards or other stuff. I don't run an extreme setting or anything but the fear of the DI box puts me off using a passive bass at gigs, as a bad soundman can completely change the character of the sound of the bass in a bad way. I don't buy the 'what sounds good to you may sound crap out front' as a reason for always using a DI box, as it kind of gives the impression that the bassist in question has no real idea on how to use eq. A crappy thin, middy P bass tone is going to sound pretty weak regardless of the system its being played through. Of course some bassists really don't know how to use eq, and some soundguys can make a passive bass sound amazing from just a DI box. I also just don't buy the 'he/she is protecting himself/herself in case your amp goes', half of the time it is just lazyness and at most gigs, there is about as much chance as the PA 'going' or their Behringer DI breaking down as there is of my amp. With that said I never really kick up a fuss and even understand using a DI box if there are a lot of bands playing at a gig (for me this is more than three), with lots of different amps and no soundcheck for anybody. Usually if a soundguy gives me a good reason why he is only using a DI box(small venue, very little bass going through PA anyway, time schedule etc) I will leave him be and just use the box, as life is too short to get wound up about such things. But if the answer is just because he can't be bothered, I just make sure to take the Sansamp out of the gigbag. Rant over! With all that said, most sound guys/girls I deal with range from good to excellent and are very easy to deal with. My rant is just based on the few times that I have just been at one of 'those' gigs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 [quote name='endorka' post='1102332' date='Jan 25 2011, 04:42 PM']Other people have advised you to walk a mile in a soundman's shoes to get perspective from their point of view; this is good advice. Jennifer[/quote] Someone been reading To Kill a Mocking Bird. Maybe take a rifle to the next gig? You could always take an overdrive pedal for use in cases where the soundman won't take a DI from your amp. At least you'll get 50% of the way there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bankai Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I work at a 1400 capacity venue. For bass guitar if we're only using one channel, then we'll take a DI direct from the guitar. If we're using two we'll use a DI along with a microphone to the cab. If a bassist specifically asked me to take DI from their rig then I'd have no problem doing it, it's just I much prefer to do it this way. Why? -Protecting against failure of the amp -Musicians will often be changing settings during the show on an amp, this will of course affect the DI coming to the FoH and mean constant adjustment down this end as well -A DI from the amp will be EQed for THAT amp and cab, not for a FoH system That's why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan670844 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 [quote name='dan670844' post='1101999' date='Jan 25 2011, 12:39 PM']Alrighty, the sound guy needs a dry signal from you bass usually this is so he can eq the main sound properly to get the main mix right. But the sound guy should always also take a feed from your amp post eq or even a mic'ed cab to colour your sound then he can blend the two together. Then all is well, but most often for the sake of easyness this is overlooked! its a case of insisting that you want it done this way[/quote] Its just a case of talking to him, as to what you want as I said earlier, but it is essential for the front of house to get all of your signal, so then the guy can make adjustments when everything is summed, very important!. That is why a dry DI is done, What may sound el clanko on the bass soloed may just sound right in the summed mix. If you take to much of the signal away with your own eq its difficult to bring it back and get a good sound. I am not saying you do this but it is important the the bass 60-200hz typically, your Harmonics 1-2.6khz and and your attack circa 5khz are there enough otherwise it will sound like an ill defined mess way out front. If the guy has your two signals he can bring anything back up front of house to get a good sound, with of course your input. hope this helps. Yes and most of the time DI in bass amps are sh*te!! and little box is much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) I'm amazed how long this thread ran before someone got the right answer, Bankai claim your five pounds! How many young bands at their first medium sized gig are going to keep messing with their amp just after the sound has been tweaked to perfection the guitard hits his DS-1 and the bassist turns his rig up leaving the sound engineer constantly chasing them all set. I love my class D head, Give them a DI out, switch it to pre and see what sound you get and ask politely for a general tweak if you feel necessary which in most cases you will be wrong and you get a reply something like "it will sound totally different once the place fills up and it will soak the top up plus I will adjust it as you go anyway". Studio stuff I switch it to post and enjoy "my sound" without dragging a cab there, do you think the people at home can tell a 2x10 from a di once it's mixed (sometimes through every possible/required effect plug in) and coming out of a £25 stereo on the kitchen window sill? Edited January 25, 2011 by stingrayPete1977 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Vincent Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1102082' date='Jan 25 2011, 01:28 PM']What is this 'PA' of which you speak? [/quote] I suggest we speak of it in a very loud voice.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilson Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 If he is "in house" leave him work his magic, he will know the room better than you ever will. Trust him as much as your band trust you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 [quote name='Doctor J' post='1101932' date='Jan 25 2011, 11:46 AM']The sound engineer shouldn't be viewed as an enemy, he's there to make your band sound as good as possible. There's nothing extra in it for him for you to sound sh*t either.[/quote] He/she is your best friend! The first thing you should do is ask his/her name and buy him a pint (if it's a decent gig and your band want to impress and you want to sound good). I know a lot of sound guys/gals and the most difficult thing to get sounding good in a crap room is the bass. Get a long lead so you can hear yourself at a distance and ask nicely to have a feed taken from you amp DI and listen out front to the sound. And if you had a good sound remember to compliment him/her after the show (they'll remember you next time). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan670844 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1102457' date='Jan 25 2011, 06:02 PM']I'm amazed how long this thread ran before someone got the right answer, Bankai claim your five pounds! How many young bands at their first medium sized gig are going to keep messing with their amp just after the sound has been tweaked to perfection the guitard hits his DS-1 and the bassist turns his rig up leaving the sound engineer constantly chasing them all set. I love my class D head, Give them a DI out, switch it to pre and see what sound you get and ask politely for a general tweak if you feel necessary which in most cases you will be wrong and you get a reply something like "it will sound totally different once the place fills up and it will soak the top up plus I will adjust it as you go anyway". Studio stuff I switch it to post and enjoy "my sound" without dragging a cab there, do you think the people at home can tell a 2x10 from a di once it's mixed (sometimes through every possible/required effect plug in) and coming out of a £25 stereo on the kitchen window sill? [/quote] I was being diplomatic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Actually I just thought, if they take a DI from the ACG they may end up pulling funny faces Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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