Soundguys That Want To Di My Guitar But Not My Amp

[joegarcia]

[quote name='Bankai' post='1102368' date='Jan 25 2011, 05:18 PM']I work at a 1400 capacity venue.

For bass guitar if we're only using one channel, then we'll take a DI direct from the guitar. If we're using two we'll use a DI along with a microphone to the cab.


If a bassist specifically asked me to take DI from their rig then I'd have no problem doing it, it's just I much prefer to do it this way. Why?

-Protecting against failure of the amp
-Musicians will often be changing settings during the show on an amp, this will of course affect the DI coming to the FoH and mean constant adjustment down this end as well
-A DI from the amp will be EQed for THAT amp and cab, not for a FoH system

That's why.[/quote]

I work full time as a sound engineer too and this is spot on.

Usually in the smaller venues the bassists amp is loud enough on stage for everyone out front to hear the character of 'their' sound anyway so a DI (before amp) is useful just to fill out the lows.
At bigger venues I will usually mic the cab too (particularly if they're using lots of pedals) and have invested lots of nice mics for this puropse. When using a mic and DI I almost always just use the DI for lows and usually prefer a separate DI before the amp for the above reasons. If they're going for a super hifi modern slap type sound then just a decent clean DI usually works best anyway.

It's a real balancing act as lots and lots of bass players have terrible amps, a terrible sound, haven't got a clue and don't actually really care. When this is the case I tend to almost take on a bit of a production role and get involved. It's usually pretty obvious when a bassist knows what they're doing and I always like to work with them closely when this is the case.

Personally, when I play in smaller venues I usually take a mic that's decent enough to accurately reproduce all the highs and lows and a short stand so it makes it easy for the house guy and use just use that. My main current band has our stage sound pretty sorted anyway as we're instrumental and really loud so we don't usually need much PA support.
Previously on bigger tours with our own FOH guy I'd be taking up three or four channels with bass but you can get away with that at bigger shows It was a three piece then too so I could (nearly) justify it.

[lowdown]

For years i have just carried my Sans amp Thingy around.
I know what it sounds like into a rig, in the studio etc.
Engineers are [b]always[/b] happy to use that.
Not bothered about mic up etc.




Garry

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='dan670844' post='1102553' date='Jan 25 2011, 06:55 PM']I was being diplomatic![/quote]

That won't get you anywhere round here

[ironside1966]

[quote name='artisan' post='1101985' date='Jan 25 2011, 12:28 PM']stick to your guns mate,the sound eng's job is as you say "to amplify your sound" period.
if he thinks tweeking it a tad may improove that sound then he should discuss it with you first,but ultimately it is your sound so the final say is yours.
some engineers are just lazy bastards & take the easy option,but unfortunaley for them i'm big enough + agressive enough (only when needs be) to put my point accross effectively .
however i do find most to be receptive to good constructive input & very good at their job,but i'd never buy one a pint.[/quote]

May I respectfully say you are so wrong.
Most of the people I have worked with do the best they can with the time and resources available too them. We are lazy in away becouse if instrument sounds great why change it? a sound engineers priority is to make the band sound good. unless the band are paying me direct and demand otherwise I always take the audience and the venue into account, what I mean by that is if I am working at a family party in the park type of event and a metal band are on the bill I try to make them more palatable for the family audience and would mix them differently to a out and out metle gig (This should not effect the tone of the instruments )most pros like this becouse if the audience are happy and the venue are happy they get rebooked.

Another reason engineers DI is far too many peoples sound doesn't work becouse they stand a few feet in front of often a large rig and pay little attention to how the sound works in the context of a mix.

What a lot of people fail to realize is that even at a moderate sized venue the majoraty of the sound still comes from backline.

[Lozz196]

The last post is so true. My band played at one of our regular venues (no house pa/engineer, just us), set up, had a great sound on stage just in front of my amp. Went walkabout out front to the audience area, and couldn`t believe how boomy and undefined it was. Rapid eq adjustment beckoned.

Learning curve there was - get a sound that I find slighly irritating and "clanky" when stood 5 feet from the amp, and it sounds great out where the audience hear it.

Must admit, I usually pre-eq DI from my amp at larger venues, and leave the sound in the hand of the engineer, and so far, the band has always gone down very well, so the job must have been done correctly, as the band must have sounded good. And I prefer the whole band to sound good, rather than each instrument sound great on its own, but not work together in the mix.

[stingrayPete1977]

I agree with Lozz and I do the same with earplugs where you can adjust your tone in your head to know what everyone else hears is good but if you up the treble to cut through the plugs on stage the audience will be cut through to the core (bit like being at a level 42 gig ) I did a 3 song set last week on a local radio station and when we listened to it after the bass was so low down in the mix it was hardly worth me being there but I don't dwell on it and move on to the next gig being precious is for guitards.

[Bankai]

I feel all warm inside

[Chris2112]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='1102361' date='Jan 25 2011, 04:59 PM']Although Jennifer's comments are perfectly valid, and probably represent a more mature attitude, I have found myself banging my head against the proverbial brick wall on a couple of occasions. Once a soundman said "you're not using THAT EQ" and then started to mess with the EQ on my amp. Another guy wouldn't let me use my rig at all. I think they're both pretty unreasonable situations and i'm sure there are many more examples.[/quote]

At the end of the day, it depends who is calling the shots. If you're a good band with a good following, you should be telling him what is what. If you're playing down the Dog and Bollock and he's the house soundman, getting in a rick with him won't do you much good, it will just mean you're not asked back.

Generally though I'd advocate some communication with the soundman, you should speak to him regarding your sound as a whole and let him know what you want. If you have a specific request or complaint, let him know later. In my time playing live, I've never really come across any soundmen who were completely unreasonable.

[bigjohn]

I tend to let soundmen do what they want. It's their rig, their room, etc etc.

Once I've got to know them, perhaps played the venue once or more, had a few beers with them, then I might start asking them do things. Otherwise, I find it's best to let them get on with it, unless they're really f***ing things up. DIing from my bass, I'm not sure I'd class as f***ing things up... though I'd feel a little silly dragging my amp there and back if so. On the whole, I've found engineers easy to get on with, as I am too

If we're paying them... then that's a different matter. But being a pain in the arse over "I want the crowd to hear my carefully" whatever will get you nowhere. You want that? Bring your own PA and tell the engineer to piss off home.

[artisan]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='1102724' date='Jan 25 2011, 10:49 PM']May I respectfully say you are so wrong.
Most of the people I have worked with do the best they can with the time and resources available too them. We are lazy in away becouse if instrument sounds great why change it? a sound engineers priority is to make the band sound good. unless the band are paying me direct and demand otherwise I always take the audience and the venue into account, what I mean by that is if I am working at a family party in the park type of event and a metal band are on the bill I try to make them more palatable for the family audience and would mix them differently to a out and out metle gig (This should not effect the tone of the instruments )most pros like this becouse if the audience are happy and the venue are happy they get rebooked.

Another reason engineers DI is far too many peoples sound doesn't work becouse they stand a few feet in front of often a large rig and pay little attention to how the sound works in the context of a mix.

What a lot of people fail to realize is that even at a moderate sized venue the majoraty of the sound still comes from backline.[/quote]

you may indeed mate,after all it's a free world.

if you read my post fully i did say that i find most sound men to be absolutley fine,but in the past i've met many who just turn the bass into mud & will not even discuss it with me,these people i do not like.
i like to think that i'm pretty good at setting my bass sound to what ever venue i play at & always discuss it with the engineer in a very jovial polite manner which nearly always leads to a very nice sound.
my last band was lucky enough to have the C.E.O. of this company [url="http://www.kv2audio.com/"]http://www.kv2audio.com/[/url] playing keys & doing the sound for us.
he actually commented on my sound & replicated it quite faithfully through the P.A. with just a little more bottom for extra "oomph",mind it is very high end gear with a fantastic sound-recommended (if you are loaded).

[Rich]

[quote name='joegarcia' post='1102590' date='Jan 25 2011, 07:12 PM']I work full time as a sound engineer too and this is spot on.[/quote]

Joe, the FOH sound you gave us at the Fiddlers is still the best we've ever had there.

[LawrenceH]

Everyone read Bankai's post! Exactly right.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1103685' date='Jan 26 2011, 02:10 PM']Everyone read Bankai's post! Exactly right.[/quote]

That's what I said but I don't think it's what most people want to hear, Amps in a gig situation are almost for show and for you to hear it how you like it so you can play it how you like, After that it's fingers crossed the foh sound is good!

[TimR]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1104121' date='Jan 26 2011, 06:08 PM']... but I don't think it's what most people want to hear...[/quote]



If I could turn up to every gig with a DI box, a lead, my bass and a tuner, I would be a happy man indeed.

In my last band I rehearsed through the PA in the rehearsal studio. It was excellent - turn up and play while the drummer was still polishing his cymbals - or whatever he did that took 3/4 of an hour to do....

[stingrayPete1977]

If I were in a big band like U2 or something then fair enough it should be bang on because ultimately I would be paying the stage crew but in a gig with 3 or 4 bands on unless it's noticeably dreadful I would rather leave it be and not look too precious especially if you then go on to play like crap (I have seen it before)

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='TimR' post='1104130' date='Jan 26 2011, 06:21 PM']

If I could turn up to every gig with a DI box, a lead, my bass and a tuner, I would be a happy man indeed.

In my last band I rehearsed through the PA in the rehearsal studio. It was excellent - turn up and play while the drummer was still polishing his cymbals - or whatever he did that took 3/4 of an hour to do....[/quote]

I'm not far off Tim with the class D heads now it's basically an EQ, Valve and DI in one box as big as a fag packet. There are a few venues where the cab could stay in the van and we use a massive PA and do our own sound at functions etc so the 2x12 is largely for show and a bit of trouser flap mostly.

[Shambo]

Some very sensible comments have made this thread restore a little of my faith in musiciankind. I did a few years stint as live engineer, starting out with a couple of years in the studio, then spending alot of time shadowing accomplished live engineers for free whilst being an extra roadie, mic placement tweaker and general cable rat. Worked my way up through theatre work to meeting more and more arsey rock and roll gits who's MO seemed to be at odds with anything and everything I needed to do. Unsurprisingly these gigs more often seemed to be the ones where I was working under the most pressure (time/equipment/quality of gear) and wondering what, if at all, I was going to get paid. To be treated as some sort of incompetent, anti-musician by someone who doesn't understand what they're asking for, was one of the reasons I walked away from the profession, (but mainly the stress of its feast/famine financial situation). The bigger shows with more professional musicians understood that their responsibility was to play their instruments well and the engineers job was to make all the instruments sit together and sound right for the PA for the room.
If you don't have faith in your soundguy then you need to take steps to ensure that, the next time you play, that you do it with someone you can trust. That doesn't involve being aggressive or throwing a wobbly at your next engineer becaused you think they should be going about their business the way you think they should. You won't be doing yourself any favours.
/rant

[Beer of the Bass]

OK, question for the sound guys. I'm getting in to using some overdriven valve amp sounds with my current band, so I feel I'm justified in wanting some of that sound in the FOH (though I'm not averse to running a clean DI in conjunction with that). Is it worth either carrying a speaker level DI box around, or getting my own mic to minimise hassle for the sound person?

[gizmo6789]

You'd think that the sound engineers would be over the moon to use the supplied D.I on the amp. saves alot of time, what with having to set up the box, run the wired etc. Definetly gonna get the soung guy to use my D.I on friday. il let you know his reply.

[Bankai]

[quote name='gizmo6789' post='1104427' date='Jan 26 2011, 09:42 PM']You'd think that the sound engineers would be over the moon to use the supplied D.I on the amp. saves alot of time, what with having to set up the box, run the wired etc. Definetly gonna get the soung guy to use my D.I on friday. il let you know his reply.[/quote]
Well that kind of ruins the point in taking a DI rather than using a microphone.

Use a DI from the guitar
OR
Use a DI from the guitar and a suitable microphone to the cab.

[BigAlonBass]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='1102361' date='Jan 25 2011, 04:59 PM']Once a soundman said "you're not using THAT EQ" and then started to mess with the EQ on my amp.[/quote]
The same thing happened to me not so long ago. I said in a very loud voice "Don't touch my gear". He ignored me.
In a very loud voice, I repeated the statement. He ignored me.
I broke his nose.

(Everyone in the venue witnessed the event, and I was about to pack my gear up when the Manager came over to me and said "He deserved that". It just so happened that he was a 'stand-in' as the regular guy had phoned to say he would be a bit late.)

I am NOT advocating violence in the least, but there are certain boundaries that I will allow NOBODY to cross.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1104228' date='Jan 26 2011, 07:29 PM']I've been looking at getting a new practice amp, basically settled on one that is small enough for sitting in the spare room should be big enough for any jam sessions that might come up, small enough for public transport in and out of taxis and a DI out just incase and same wattage as my old combo anyway. If I start giggin' again might invest in one of the POD lives too what else do you need.



I have a mate does the function/wedding/covers band bit. He was telling me they just upgraded their PA into a serious bit of gear. He's just bought a new cab and looking for a Mark bass rig to increase his gear up too without too much weight. I have no idea why he is bothering when they have such a good PA and he could go straight into the board.[/quote]

If I were shelling out on a new setup I would get almost what I have now, makes and model to personal taste obviously but a light weight head with some power (mines a true 600w into 4ohms unlike some where it's half what it says on the time naming no names Ashdown lol) valve pre to warm it up a bit or a lot if you like and a switchable pre/post DI. Then a 1x12 for home use and small venues/studio stuff, A big cab whatever you like 4x10, 2x 2x10 etc (I have the 2x12 4 ohm to get the full whack out of it) it's such a versatile setup to cover all situations plus you are using your head every time so you get to know your gear which is as important as having good gear IMO. I can't think of a situation where it can't be used from just the head in a studio as a valve driven eq-able di box to a massive stage gig it's plenty loud enough for somewhere like a 3000 capacity venue on stage plus surely most of your monitoring would be in the wedges unless you want to stand next to your cab all night? One amp (doesn't have to be class D) and a selection of cabs FTW

Bankai-Why would taking a DI from your amp defeat the object? Taking it from my amp gives the desk my Stingray tone through a bit of my valve drive without me worrying that if I turn my rig up (obviously not adjusting the pre/gain just my master) half way through a song FOH mix will get ruined like using a mic, Or am I missing something? Ta

Edited January 26, 2011 by stingrayPete1977

[martindupras]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1102123' date='Jan 25 2011, 01:57 PM']If you arent out front then you dont know what it sounds like out front.

You cant even be 100% sure from the reverb tail you may hear.

The engineer (if he is any good) should be willing - if he has time, and there is a decent reason to - to put a mic in front of a cab as well as a DI. If he doesnt have time, then tough luck. Time to blame the guitarist, drummer, vocalist, other band, traffic whatever, doesnt matter, you havent got time!

As far as I'm concerned a DI off the bass (with said mic'ed cab) makes more sense than a DI'ed amp, since the amp may go 'pop'. That DI is going to be mainly used to extend the bottom end down (close micing a driver will be relatively mid heavy compared to the soulnd of your cab as a whole), and maybe the top end up a bit too (for those that like some tw***). The amp DI alone, if its got some drive, will sound crappy as, it wont sound decent unless its gone through a driver. If its clean as a whistle then why not cut out the amp?

You will eq your amp to sound how you want it through your bass cabs. Guess what, the PA isnt using your bass cabs, so it will have a different frequency response, so your eq will be useless, probably damaging to, your perceived sound. If your amp allows you to go pre-eq then thats a help, but its still another thing to fail. A mic in front of a driver is the only way to capture some of the sound of your rig.

An engineer may come over and have a listen to your bass rig, or not, dependant on the acoustics in the room he may not really need to to hear it any better than from the desk.

Unless you use a lot of tubey overdrive or fx of some other kind you dont need to have the amp in the chain to the desk, if you do they need to be included in the signal chain, and the best bet is a DI before any overdrives if possible, and a mic on the cab.

Do not p*** off the engineer, your mix will suffer. If someone got aggressive with me about how they thought things had to be set up, they wouldn't be playing that night, or any other night.

Engineers get a lot of stick. Have you ever done any engineering? It is no where near as easy as you think. It isnt made any easier by people who dont really know what they are talking about trying to make unrealistic ill informed demands, and then making it impossible to achieve those demands by their own actions. For instance turning the bass up real loud just means everyone else is quieter in the PA, chaps, bass spill really is omnidirectional!

I can promise you that if you try to make me engineer by 'taking your sound and making it louder' the end result will sound crap. Really. Unless your entire band understand frequency mixing, and have carved all their sounds to take this into account (you will need an electric kit to do this) then you will just put out a massive mush of noise with no clarity at all. The last thing you actually want is your sound but louder![/quote]

This is pretty much everything I was going to reply with. Very, very sensible answer.

The only thing I would add is that in my personal experience, if you ask the soundman nicely and you make their job easy, they will accomodate you if it's relatively straightforward and painless. If a soundman wants a DI from my bass, they can have one; they're used to it, they know how to EQ it, etc. I suggest that they also take a DI feed from the amp on the grounds that I use quite a lot of effects pedal. If they have a free strip on the board, it's no harder than having using a strip for an extra mic.

- martin

[EskimoBassist]

51m0n has said everything that I wanted to say; I'm very glad that I had a read through of this thread because I could have been typing out a response for quite a while.

[joegarcia]

[quote name='Rich' post='1103559' date='Jan 26 2011, 01:09 PM']Joe, the FOH sound you gave us at the Fiddlers is still the best we've ever had there. [/quote]

Awww, cheers chap! Great band though! You make it easy for us