Soundguys That Want To Di My Guitar But Not My Amp

[digitalmetal]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1104556' date='Jan 26 2011, 11:27 PM']Bankai-Why would taking a DI from your amp defeat the object? Taking it from my amp gives the desk my Stingray tone through a bit of my valve drive without me worrying that if I turn my rig up (obviously not adjusting the pre/gain just my master) half way through a song FOH mix will get ruined like using a mic, Or am I missing something? Ta[/quote]

This had been my feeling all along and the thinking behind the original post

The obvious thing missing from this setup us is clean DI but is a clean really that important? just for the low end perhaps, I dont know,
And this thread is making me begin to care less as everyone obviously has different opinions and i may just carry on with my thoughts of requesting My Di (with my valve distortion - what i consider my sound) along with the clean DI if the soundguy insists on that.

I will do what i usually do and take a moment to stand out front during sound check to have a quick listen if it sounds too trebbley i will tell them.

[TimR]

[quote name='digitalmetal' post='1104718' date='Jan 27 2011, 08:23 AM']This had been my feeling all along and the thinking behind the original post

The obvious thing missing from this setup us is clean DI but is a clean really that important? just for the low end perhaps, I dont know,
And this thread is making me begin to care less as everyone obviously has different opinions and i may just carry on with my thoughts of requesting My Di (with my valve distortion - what i consider my sound) along with the clean DI if the soundguy insists on that.

I will do what i usually do and take a moment to stand out front during sound check to have a quick listen if it sounds too trebbley i will tell them.[/quote]

Your situation is different to that of most of us in that you are using the drive from your amp as an effect.

The problem is, as has already been noted, bass players have a habit of fiddling with their amps as their ears get used to the stage volume. If the DI is post EQ you have all sorts of problems. If the DI is taken pre EQ then it's only the pre-amp gain that the soundman has to worry about.

I lent my amp to someone at a festival, during the set of 6 songs he must had adjusted something at the end of every song. Sometimes this is just nervousness. If you don't know the gear don't try to mess with it while performing. I couldn't hear any difference out front but the DI on my amp can be switched pre EQ or post EQ. when we played I found something that worked and left it as was for the entire set. We're all different.

Edited January 27, 2011 by TimR

[51m0n]

Point to note for all those guys thinking about taking an amp DI withe some overdrive.

Overdrive has an awful lot of nasty high frequency crud in it. Masses in fact!

That is why DIing an overdriven guitar sounds fizzy, nasty and utterly unconvincing.

How come a mic on a cab sounds so good then?

Because paper cones dont reproduce that high end fizz and crud at all. Its beyond their capability to, and guitar cabs have only got paper cones.

So whats the issue with sending an overdriven DI to a soundguy?

The PA has massively powerful tweeters that happily go way higher than the nasty gank at the top of the overdriven signal, and will reproduce it in all its disgusting fizzy 'glory', sounding not unlike a baziilion angry bees rather than a fantastic tone.

What has this to do with bass?

Exactly the same gank occurs at the top of a DI'ed overdriven bass signal, and it sounds just as rank.

If you want to use overdrive, and have it sound good, mic the cab. In fact if you tell any sound engineer worth his salt that amp/pedal overdrive plays a part in the bass tone you are after, he should go reaching for a mic to capture it, and a DI to get a really tight solid bass tone too.

A cab simluator may help rectify this, but if you arent playing in a venue with a lot of outboard you can't expect that, and frankly they dont sound as good as an SM57 on a driver anyway (and cost a lot more). For the purpose of capturing drive on a cab an SM57, although not the best mic in the world, is perfectly acceptable.

Eq alone will nto fix it either, it still sounds rubbish if you try and eq the top off, no eq deals with the top end like a paper cone does. Unfortunately.

If you are really really serious about having your cab mic'ed, get a serious mic for the job, like a Heil PR40.

If you want to use overdrive and have the FOH reproduce it, mic the cab. Amp DI's will not cut it.

Edited January 27, 2011 by 51m0n

[algmusic]

It's tricky one.

I agree until you've been a sound guy you don't usually understand. Time is an issue, also everyone has a different sound some because they want that others becuase they have no clue.

If i'm Di-ing my amp or pre amp, I'm mindful of not giving too much bass or treble as it's very hard to mix and the FOH will sound boomy or too toppy. We won't know that unless the sound guy says, but must won't bother because they get a lot of ego from pre madonna players who have everything up full and can't be bothered with the stress. If the sound is bad people always complain about the sound guy, but I've been on many occasions the problem is the player or their gear.

If you amplify sh8t you get loud sh*t!!

On the flip side some soundguys don't care and will screw up a good sound. I also found an mxr or sanamp is a good weapon to have handy if you're not using your amp. The bass will sound warmer than straight DI

I always introduce myself, do my best to help and ask if it's ok to DI my amp as I know I get the best mix of my sound but not too hard for the sound guy to get a good mix for the audience. If they are keen on the DI-ing my bass I say if I can try it with amp and if it fails, I'll go straight from my bass. Every time after sound check, they say you get a loevly sound out of that bass and amp. On the one occasion the guy didn't let me, I changed it and didn't tell him, and he never knew :-)

[ironside1966]

The problem with some venues is that the pay is crap and they treat the soundman like Sh** so all they get is people hoping to get experience or on an ego trip. The more lucrative bands and musicians and venues tend to work with better people because they employ people who they trust. You would be lucky to get a good engineer for little more than the bar bars staff.
For me a sound check is basic a level check and to set the monitors if there is no separate mix engineer. If musicians think that they should come out front and listen to each individual instrument advising the engineer how it should sound then they are mistaken, this is not arrogance it is just that it doesn’t work.
It is easy to read book understand the theory and there are many great recourses about but what books don’t tell you is the politics of been a sound engineer, the limited amount of time you have I have done many band with just a line check without any contact before or afterwards. There are times when you know that there are better ways of mic’ing or you could use better mics but if you can’t keep an eye on them someone will pinch them or keep knocking them over. There are times when you have to be curt, after years of saying can you not play yet please I am sound checking the drums been constantly ignored time you tend to get to the point quicker.

It the engineers good then let them get on with it if they are bad then confusing them will make it worse. In my role as a bass player I never listen to the FOH sound because if I am not happy it will spoil my enjoyment.

[ThomBassmonkey]

I always insist on being DI'd or mic'd, don't care which but I didn't spend the amount I did on an amp to use it as a monitor.

When I use my amp's OD through the DI, it sounds fine.

[algmusic]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1105093' date='Jan 27 2011, 02:17 PM']I always insist on being DI'd or mic'd, don't care which but I didn't spend the amount I did on an amp to use it as a monitor.

When I use my amp's OD through the DI, it sounds fine.[/quote]

I agree, that's what I do, but I understand why sound guy ask for DI from the bass. Only till last year when I was talking to a soundguy he said the problem is that some bassist have too much eq in their sound, which makes it hard to get a good sound. I always try and ask the PA, were possible if it's ok or if there's enough or too much of something.

I do the same in the studio, you get better sound for the audience or on the CD. When I was recording I had 4 audio tracks for bass. Who knows which tracks they'll use on he final song

[mike257]

There's a big problem here with the perception of the sound tech's job.

At the four bands on a bill, cram them in band night round your local gigging establishment that most of us in unsigned originals bands are frequenting, the sound guy basically has to run the whole show. His job is not to make your band sound like the way you sound in your practice room/garage/wildest dreams - he has to turn round 4 (or more!) bands in an extremely tight schedule, get them on and off the stage (with all their equipment) and make all of them sound decent, dealing with any changes and technical hitches on the fly.

In reality, the luxury of taking the time to get 'your' sound for you just doesn't exist. I did a tour a few years ago and was lucky enough to have a sound guy I know (who now runs FOH for The Script and Brand New) come out with us. He DI'd my Stingray, straight out of the bass, every night - I had no reason to argue because he knew what he was doing, and what he had to achieve in the limited time available.

Sometimes you can get the nice extras of mics and multiple channels (and he did them for the bigger shows) but it's all about compromise.

And everything Bankai said.

[stingrayPete1977]

Just to clarify I'm talking pre EQ setting for live, I only use the post for recording to access the EQ controls as I don't require a speaker load. And when I say a little bit of valve I mean little, in fact with the crystal clear electronics on Stingrays even with any unwanted fizz that creates it would still be less than many single coiled straight DI'd basses.

Also I'm not being a pedant but as for the downside of doing it my way I agree if the amp head fails foh goes silent but I have had 2 DI boxes fail and only one amp fail whilst playing through a full PA and when the amp went there is no way we could of carried on (usually my first rule live) but it went into total meltdown and shorted to the speaker at FULL volume.

At the end of the day these are all part of playing live and the more you do the less you fuss and go with the person who knows their PA and venue better than you

Edited January 27, 2011 by stingrayPete1977

[Bankai]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1104556' date='Jan 26 2011, 11:27 PM']Bankai-Why would taking a DI from your amp defeat the object?[/quote]
Probably the best response would be a copypasta of my earlier post:

[i]We take a DI from the guitar as opposed to the amp for these reasons:
-Protecting against failure of the amp
-Musicians will often be changing settings during the show on an amp, this will of course affect the DI coming to the FoH and mean constant adjustment down this end as well
-A DI from the amp will be EQed for THAT amp and cab, not for a FoH system[/i]

If you want amp sound then you use a microphone to the cab but in conjunction with a DI from the guitar so you still have the positives listed above, but with the added tones chosen by the bassist.

[stingrayPete1977]

So like I said again,
Point 1- I have had 2 di boxes fail on me and only one amp (if i knew i had an amp issue i would of course have a clean di and pre warn the engineer until the head was replaced or 100% repaired).

Points 2&3- I always have my DI set to pre EQ and never touch the gain/input volume knobs once playing any other knobs only affects my cab not foh.

Edited January 28, 2011 by stingrayPete1977

[leroybasslines]

Soundmen are like any other person involved in a show: if they have talent and intelligence they will be good to work with and will find the compromise between room, logistics and musicians and somehow keep everyone happy. For us bass players, a good soundman is like a good drummer - if you find one, be nice to him/her and NEVER let them out of your sights for the rest of your life. I know about 3 or 4 sound people that I will always go to if my band needs them. They know us, we know them, everyone is happy.

But, just like sometimes one has to play with dodgy drummers, sometimes one has to deal with less able sound men. I once did a wedding and the couple that booked us insisted that their friend, who was just starting up a PA hire company, did the sound so that he could gain experience with his new kit. I said that I didn't think that was a good idea considering the expense of hiring a band for a wedding and that we wanted to sound and play as well as possible to make the night a memorable one, but they really wanted to do it and the customer is always right. Anyway, the dude had a lovely collection of PA kit, but no ear for music. He took 30 mins to soundcheck the bass drum alone. The singers were almost in tears by the end of the check and I had to spend a lot of time mediating between sound and band. And when he asked if we could wear in-ear monitors, I refused! Who knows what damage he could have done?! But, at the end of the day, we had to work with him and do our best with what was going on.

My point is that you have to be professional and that some soundmen are geniuses to be cherished, cared for and looked after and some are crap. When I trust a sound man, I will do whatever he says because he knows me, knows how I play and how to make the best of that and the band in the room and conditions we are in. If he asks to DI my bass, my amp, mic me up, go off the back line alone, I trust him. I trust that he can hear FOH and knows what sounds best, even if from where I'm standing it sounds crap. That trust is really important. If we play a venue with a resident engineer, I trust that that engineer knows what works in that room. I'll have a chat with him about what I sound like and then leave him to it. The sound on stage usually has nothing to do with the sound out front; as long as I can hear myself and key instruments I'm happy. As someone said in a previous post, bass players' ears do funny things in the course of a gig - bass frequencies are the first to be lost to our ears at high volume so we tend to roll up the bass as we go along so that we can hear it. I think that most of the time, my amp is really an on stage monitor for me and the drummer which is why I use PJB stuff now!

So, find a soundman and trap him. Keep him shackled but be nice to him. Feed him well and care for him and he will care for you!

[leroybasslines]

Oh yeah, and having a J Retro on my bass always gives me the option to fight back EQ wise if I need to...

[cocco]

We're lucky that we have our own sound guy, he takes the bass feed from my sans-amp which is great!

[51m0n]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1105833' date='Jan 28 2011, 07:23 AM']So like I said again,
Point 1- I have had 2 di boxes fail on me and only one amp (if i knew i had an amp issue i would of course have a clean di and pre warn the engineer until the head was replaced or 100% repaired).

Points 2&3- I always have my DI set to pre EQ and never touch the gain/input volume knobs once playing any other knobs only affects my cab not foh.[/quote]

You are in the minority there I think.

I've never seen a decent passive DI that hadnt been brutally abused go pop.

In fact I've never seen an active one go pop I think.

I've seen plenty of amps fail though.

My suggestion, get a really good robust DI of your own if you do a lot of work with PA support and lots of different PAs/soundguys etc.

At the end of the day if you are happy with what you have and how you are using it, then great, not going to suggest that there is only one way to sking this cat, just that other ways may be better. If your experience doesnt tally with that, then go with whaty makes sense to you!

However if someone told me they had a known potential issue with their rig, I'd politely ask them not to use it if there was any other option. Electronics going wrong can do very nasty things, and nobody wants to see that happen.

[algmusic]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1105923' date='Jan 28 2011, 09:47 AM']You are in the minority there I think.

I've never seen a decent passive DI that hadnt been brutally abused go pop.

In fact I've never seen an active one go pop I think.

I've seen plenty of amps fail though.

My suggestion, get a really good robust DI of your own if you do a lot of work with PA support and lots of different PAs/soundguys etc.

At the end of the day if you are happy with what you have and how you are using it, then great, not going to suggest that there is only one way to sking this cat, just that other ways may be better. If your experience doesnt tally with that, then go with whaty makes sense to you!

However if someone told me they had a known potential issue with their rig, I'd politely ask them not to use it if there was any other option. Electronics going wrong can do very nasty things, and nobody wants to see that happen.[/quote]

There are lots of valid points flying around

*Basically, the DI used for simplicity and speed, but not always the best option on it's own. It's reliable and easier for sound guys when there is quick turn around of bands. If you have a good DI box, they actually sound blo*d good, but you don't usually find them flying around.
*DI the bass and mic-ing the amp is best, but let's be honest, unless you're playing a big festival, regular function with same sound guy, show or in the studio, it's not gonna happen due to time. Best of both worlds with your sound in the mix.
*Using a preamp is a good idea, but you have to be careful of having too much colour in that sound or it will sound bad in the FOH. I usually do this, but I always get the sound guys opinion or a friend on the FOH
*However DI the bass and mic-ing is really pointless as you kinda got both coloured sounds unless the amp is DI is pre eq.

But ultimately the quality of the sound guy with all of the above

I did a gig last night, and it was commented again that my bass sounded really nice. I used my amp DI-ed. the rest DI from the bass.

Oh yeah I forgot to mention bad bass players and ruin everything :-p

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Bankai' post='1105825' date='Jan 28 2011, 05:12 AM']Probably the best response would be a copypasta of my earlier post:

[i]We take a DI from the guitar as opposed to the amp for these reasons:
-Protecting against failure of the amp
-Musicians will often be changing settings during the show on an amp, this will of course affect the DI coming to the FoH and mean constant adjustment down this end as well
-A DI from the amp will be EQed for THAT amp and cab, not for a FoH system[/i]

If you want amp sound then you use a microphone to the cab but in conjunction with a DI from the guitar so you still have the positives listed above, but with the added tones chosen by the bassist.[/quote]

Point four - random mysterious earth loop-style buzzes that only appear on the amp DI and not your proper, transformer-balanced DI. Oh, how many times have I had those...

[51m0n]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1105966' date='Jan 28 2011, 10:28 AM']Point four - random mysterious earth loop-style buzzes that only appear on the amp DI and not your proper, transformer-balanced DI. Oh, how many times have I had those...[/quote]

Yeah, very good point, you dont want to be asking people to lift the earth on their amp on a stage really....

[dan670844]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1105923' date='Jan 28 2011, 09:47 AM']You are in the minority there I think.

I've never seen a decent passive DI that hadnt been brutally abused go pop.

In fact I've never seen an active one go pop I think.

I've seen plenty of amps fail though.

My suggestion, get a really good robust DI of your own if you do a lot of work with PA support and lots of different PAs/soundguys etc.

At the end of the day if you are happy with what you have and how you are using it, then great, not going to suggest that there is only one way to sking this cat, just that other ways may be better. If your experience doesnt tally with that, then go with whaty makes sense to you!

However if someone told me they had a known potential issue with their rig, I'd politely ask them not to use it if there was any other option. Electronics going wrong can do very nasty things, and nobody wants to see that happen.[/quote]


+1 on that never seen passive DI go pop, even the active ones it usually only power related issues. I have a Radial Pro that has really been heavily used in fact it looks chewed but never had any probs with it. If you going for a passive DI you can't go wrong with these, its full range and doesnt loose the harmonics like some of the cheaper ones

[dbass]

I'm normally DI'd out the back of my amp and leave it clean for the engineer to mix. I always say what sound I'm going after but then leave it in the hands of the engineer to perfect.

With my tribute band a lot of my tone is through my style (Black Sabbath, so my right hand is normally over the 24th fret marker, for those Black Sabbath fans, you'll know what sound that is!!!) so with my EQ flat I can normally achieve it quite well. Get a lot of compliments for my tone!

With my death metal band it is a lot harder to get a good tone live. In fact, I HAVE to insist on a bit more of a toppy sound just to cut through the guitars. Having a "beefy" SVT tone is hard to replicate live unless you are going through an awesome system or via a Sans Amp. Normally when I hear other bands sound check and the bass player has an awesome "smiley face" tone you KNOW it will get lost in the mix.

[ironside1966]

I have learnt over the years that there is no one size fits all solution I have worked alongside many great engineers and they all do things differently and have different ideas, every job and set of circumstances are different so the best bit of advice I can give you based an many years as a professional sound man is let the engineer get on with it there is no need to tell him his job.
If you really want the best sound then make sure you play at a reasonable volume get a stage sound you are happy with then leave it, that is far more important then whether you have a DI or microphone.

[stingrayPete1977]

Both DI box fails were due to jack socket issues at different venues one was certainly the Varsity at Wolverhampton not sure where the other one was maybe Bull and Gate Kentish town, The Varsity one was mid song the other luckily was before we started as the sound guy noticed I was only coming out of my rig as we were about to start, a quick box change both times fixed it no problems although if memory serves me right at the Varsity one the front man decided it was good idea to get his drink he had left near the stage then fell off trying to get back up and smashed the G string tuning peg off his Les Paul! This stuff happens live thats life and is still better than listening to a cd even with its interesting moments shall we say.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1105923' date='Jan 28 2011, 09:47 AM']However if someone told me they had a known potential issue with their rig, I'd politely ask them not to use it if there was any other option. Electronics going wrong can do very nasty things, and nobody wants to see that happen.[/quote]

This was an early UK built top of the range Ashdown rig that very very rarely had a problem where it just hummed its knackers off until you switched it off but it was sort of every six months or even a year apart so any supposed fixes were impossible to tell if they had permanatly resolved it or not I wouldnt of used the onboard DI on that even though it was a very rare occurance but still the reason I sold it (even listed as spare or repair for karma's sake) and have the Genz that replaced it. I wouldnt of wanted the post EQ Ashdown sound in FOH anyway either!

[stingrayPete1977]

Well after all this talk about DI options I got to last nights gig and the sound guy asked if my head had a DI out, great he says that's perfect here's you lead I will leave it ready for you. By the time I had my gear ready they had discovered both bass bins had blown there crossovers so I had to use my rig for FOH anyway! Just confirms what I said before about live gigs being open for all sorts of gear failure, Maybe I'm not quite as ready to lose my cab for live gigs as I thought though, it would of been a disaster!

Edited January 30, 2011 by stingrayPete1977