mart Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 A few months ago I bought a Warwick 1x15 Neo cab to go with my Shuttle 3. Mostly I play at quite low volumes (having strong PA support), but last weekend I finally had the chance to turn the volume up a bit to see how things sounded. And it wasn't good - not the big clean sound I was looking for. I put both the gain and the master just under half way up on the Shuttle (and everything else flat) and got quite a bit of distortion: there was some sharp, but brief, clipping when I plucked a note, and a general buzz after that until the note started to fade. I really don't have much experience of playing at that kind of volume, so I'm wondering if I'm being unreasonable by hoping for more clean headroom out of the rig. I thought I should be able to put the controls (or the master volume, at least) up nearly full and have a clean sound - the cab says "400W" on it, and the Shuttle is rated at 175W through 8ohms (which is the impedance of the cab). Am I being unreasonable, or is there some problem with the cab? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stylon Pilson Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 The 400W is a thermal power limit, and isn't really a useful figure. There might be a problem with the cab, or it might be that it just can't handle that much power in the low frequencies. The way to find this out would be to adjust your EQ for a less bassy sound and see if the problem persists. S.P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Turn gain down and volume up. Does it change matters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mart Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 [quote name='charic' post='1104863' date='Jan 27 2011, 11:23 AM']Turn gain down and volume up. Does it change matters?[/quote] When you say that now, it seems an obvious thing to check. So why didn't I check it when I had the chance? I'll try it and see. The problem is if I play at home at this volume then so many other things rattle that I can't be sure what's the cab and what's not. So I have to wait for a chance to play elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mart Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 [quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='1104844' date='Jan 27 2011, 11:04 AM']The 400W is a thermal power limit, and isn't really a useful figure. There might be a problem with the cab, or it might be that it just can't handle that much power in the low frequencies. The way to find this out would be to adjust your EQ for a less bassy sound and see if the problem persists. S.P.[/quote] Yep, I guessed the 400 was a thermal limit, but I'm not, theoretically, even getting close to half of that. Is it likely that a 400W (thermal limit) cab actually only has, say, a 100W excursion limit? And yes, I guess the problem is with the low frequencies, but that's what I want from the cab, so if it can't handle them, then I have a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Might be worth making sure it's not a structural thing. I had a rear panel on my old Hartke VX215 work loose which caused distortion, 30 mins with a drill and a pack of screws sorted it out. Try getting someone else to play your bass while you put pressure on different parts of the cab to see if that's the problem. When it happened to me it sounded very much like speaker distortion (Lemmy style) so i was chuffed when it was such a cheap repair! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 [quote name='mart' post='1104935' date='Jan 27 2011, 12:15 PM']Yep, I guessed the 400 was a thermal limit, but I'm not, theoretically, even getting close to half of that. Is it likely that a 400W (thermal limit) cab actually only has, say, a 100W excursion limit?[/quote] Unfortunately yes. But was the Shuttle clipping? If you keep pushing it after the clip/limit LED comes on then the power amp will eventually distort. Cutting your lows will reduce the demands on the driver but it'll also reduce the demands on the power amp, so that alone won't tell you where the problem lies. A quick fix is to stick the cab right in the corner of a room, preferably with solid (not stud) walls behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mart Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 [quote name='alexclaber' post='1105048' date='Jan 27 2011, 01:43 PM']Unfortunately yes. But was the Shuttle clipping? If you keep pushing it after the clip/limit LED comes on then the power amp will eventually distort. Cutting your lows will reduce the demands on the driver but it'll also reduce the demands on the power amp, so that alone won't tell you where the problem lies. A quick fix is to stick the cab right in the corner of a room, preferably with solid (not stud) walls behind.[/quote] Thanks for that Alex; although you're confirming my worst fears (and making my purchase of a Barefaced cab that much more imminent ) it does at least confirm that I'm not imagining things! The Shuttle wasn't clipping - the LED didn't light at all. Re your quick fix: By putting the cab in the corner I will get lots more volume for the power - is that your point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mart Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 [quote name='lemmywinks' post='1104958' date='Jan 27 2011, 12:31 PM']Might be worth making sure it's not a structural thing. I had a rear panel on my old Hartke VX215 work loose which caused distortion, 30 mins with a drill and a pack of screws sorted it out. Try getting someone else to play your bass while you put pressure on different parts of the cab to see if that's the problem. When it happened to me it sounded very much like speaker distortion (Lemmy style) so i was chuffed when it was such a cheap repair![/quote] Ah, yes, that's a good point - I haven't checked over the screws, so I will have a look at that. And yeah, I'll see if some physical pressure changes the symptoms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 [quote name='mart' post='1105064' date='Jan 27 2011, 01:54 PM']Re your quick fix: By putting the cab in the corner I will get lots more volume for the power - is that your point?[/quote] Kind of - more volume in the lower omnidirectional frequencies, see Sept '10 article: [url="http://barefacedbass.com/bgm-columns.htm"]http://barefacedbass.com/bgm-columns.htm[/url] Definitely check for spurious vibrations too! If you crank up everything on the amp and play loud does the clip/limit LED light? There's a tiny chance it's not working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartyBRebelMC Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 This could be completely irrelevant but - I was playing a pub gig recently and using the same settings as with other gigs etc but it sounded like i was getting some distortion (harsh rasping tone) when we did a sound check. Now I always listen out front without ear protection when we do the sound check and it did sound harsh - however when i put my earplugs (etimotic thingies) in it revealed that everything was absolutely fine (simply too loud for the space)...my point being that it is sometimes very difficult to tell whats going on when playing at very high volumes as the human ear starts to give up and compress everything to noise with some frequencies becoming more prevelant than others.. and yes we did turn it down! I realise that's probably not what's going on here but where the human ear is concerned i have noticed that when you turn things up they dont just simply get louder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 [quote name='MartyBRebelMC' post='1105236' date='Jan 27 2011, 04:46 PM']This could be completely irrelevant but - I was playing a pub gig recently and using the same settings as with other gigs etc but it sounded like i was getting some distortion (harsh rasping tone) when we did a sound check. Now I always listen out front without ear protection when we do the sound check and it did sound harsh - however when i put my earplugs (etimotic thingies) in it revealed that everything was absolutely fine (simply too loud for the space)...my point being that it is sometimes very difficult to tell whats going on when playing at very high volumes as the human ear starts to give up and compress everything to noise with some frequencies becoming more prevelant than others.. and yes we did turn it down! I realise that's probably not what's going on here but where the human ear is concerned i have noticed that when you turn things up they dont just simply get louder.[/quote] I had this happen at a gig at Koko in Camden. I'd forgotten my ER15 earplugs, the support act were loud but just about ok. When the main act came on the volume went up sufficiently that my ears totally fuzzed out - I could only hear the music by putting my hands over my ears. Cue some impromptu tissue paper earplugs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mart Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 [quote name='alexclaber' post='1105215' date='Jan 27 2011, 04:20 PM']Kind of - more volume in the lower omnidirectional frequencies, see Sept '10 article: [url="http://barefacedbass.com/bgm-columns.htm"]http://barefacedbass.com/bgm-columns.htm[/url][/quote] Ok, I understand that. I've been following your BGM columns religiously btw - they really are fantastic! [quote name='alexclaber' post='1105215' date='Jan 27 2011, 04:20 PM']Definitely check for spurious vibrations too! If you crank up everything on the amp and play loud does the clip/limit LED light? There's a tiny chance it's not working.[/quote] I'll try cranking everything and seeing if I can get the clip light on, to see if that's ok. Re the comments about ear compression and so on, I don't think that's going on - the overall volume really isn't very loud. I don't have the kit to measure this objectively, but I'd say it's comparable with a loud drummer playing on their own. And I can hear things pretty clearly standing about 30 feet away from the cab. And the room is a large carpeted hall, so I think the room could cope with much more volume before having any impact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mart Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) The opportunity arose for a bit more testing, so I grabbed it. The clip LED is working - if I put the gain up two thirds of the way, and the master on full, then it comes on readily. So then I backed off the gain to half way, so that the clip LED didn't come on even with the hardest plucking. Keeping the master on full, it's just as before: it sounds to me like serious clipping on the transients, and then general fuzziness afterwards. I've also got an old Trace Commando combo where the head died so I re-wired a direct connection to the speaker (8ohm, 100W, 12") and putting the Shuttle into that with the same settings it's actually slightly cleaner than the Warwick. Still not clean, but a shade less fuzz. The Warwick cab is still under guarantee; so should I send it back to the shop on the basis that it's not delivering a clean enough signal? I don't quite feel sure enough of my ground - it's not like it's unquestionably broken - it's just not doing what I want it to. Edited January 27, 2011 by mart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 [quote name='mart' post='1105442' date='Jan 27 2011, 07:18 PM']The opportunity arose for a bit more testing, so I grabbed it. The clip LED is working - if I put the gain up two thirds of the way, and the master on full, then it comes on readily. So then I backed off the gain to half way, so that the clip LED didn't come on even with the hardest plucking. Keeping the master on full, it's just as before: it sounds to me like serious clipping on the transients, and then general fuzziness afterwards. I've also got an old Trace Commando combo where the head died so I re-wired a direct connection to the speaker (8ohm, 100W, 12") and putting the Shuttle into that with the same settings it's actually slightly cleaner than the Warwick. Still not clean, but a shade less fuzz. The Warwick cab is still under guarantee; so should I send it back to the shop on the basis that it's not delivering a clean enough signal? I don't quite feel sure enough of my ground - it's not like it's unquestionably broken - it's just not doing what I want it to.[/quote] If it's outperformed by a Trace Commando then something is rather wrong...perhaps the voice coil is a bit malformed, I've had PA speakers get knackered in this way before, ie a problem only manifested at high volume where previously the speaker worked fine (and its partner still worked fine). I'd try and persuade the shop to take it back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mart Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 [quote name='LawrenceH' post='1105458' date='Jan 27 2011, 07:27 PM']If it's outperformed by a Trace Commando then something is rather wrong...perhaps the voice coil is a bit malformed, I've had PA speakers get knackered in this way before, ie a problem only manifested at high volume where previously the speaker worked fine (and its partner still worked fine). I'd try and persuade the shop to take it back.[/quote] Thanks. Yes, I suppose the Commando comparison does rather put things in perspective! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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