P bass tone capacitor

[OldGit]

My SXy P bass has a big loud tone but it's a tad lacking in the bright department.
I've got some of my normal Elixir lights on the way to replace the Fenders it came with but I have read about the wonders of the "SPRAGUE .047mfd
ORANGE DROP CAP" tone capacitor

What's so great about them and what does using one do to the sound?

Cheers,
OG

[Hamster]

[quote name='OldGit' post='127122' date='Jan 24 2008, 05:43 PM']My SXy P bass has a big loud tone but it's a tad lacking in the bright department.
I've got some of my normal Elixir lights on the way to replace the Fenders it came with but I have read about the wonders of the "SPRAGUE .047mfd
ORANGE DROP CAP" tone capacitor

What's so great about them and what does using one do to the sound?

Cheers,
OG[/quote]

Don't know about that particular cap, but the cap in the circuit is to roll off the highs. If you want a brighter tone, try swapping it out for a .022 cap.

Hamster

[stevebasshead]

Fender experts will no doubt answer better but it sounds similar to what Rickenbacker used to do on the bridge pickup. They put a .0047 (that's one more nought than the one you're talking about) capacitor in the bridge pup's tone circuit to remove a shedload of bass and lower mids. A .047 cap like you mention (I would imagine) do the same but to a lesser extent. So it doesn't so much add brightness as lose some bottom end giving a more clear tone.

Ric have recently added the cap back but on a push/pull tone pot so you can switch it in and out of circuit - if the Fender cap is the same sort of idea maybe you'd want to do something similar so you can get the best of both worlds.

Of course, I could be talking complete b*ll*cks, I'm not up to speed on Fender tweaks

[OldGit]

[quote name='Hamster' post='127139' date='Jan 24 2008, 06:02 PM']Don't know about that particular cap, but the cap in the circuit is to roll off the highs. If you want a brighter tone, try swapping it out for a .022 cap.

Hamster[/quote]

So I know the tone knob on a P is a simple treble cut but does it start at zero cut or does the capacitor make a difference when the tone is on "full up"?
Cheers

[OldGit]

[quote name='stevebasshead' post='127144' date='Jan 24 2008, 06:09 PM']Fender experts will no doubt answer better but it sounds similar to what Rickenbacker used to do on the bridge pickup. They put a .0047 (that's one more nought than the one you're talking about) capacitor in the bridge pup's tone circuit to remove a shedload of bass and lower mids. A .047 cap like you mention (I would imagine) do the same but to a lesser extent. So it doesn't so much add brightness as lose some bottom end giving a more clear tone.

Ric have recently added the cap back but on a push/pull tone pot so you can switch it in and out of circuit - if the Fender cap is the same sort of idea maybe you'd want to do something similar so you can get the best of both worlds.

Of course, I could be talking complete b*ll*cks, I'm not up to speed on Fender tweaks [/quote]

Ah now there's an idea... I just happen to have a pushpul pot hanging around so maybe I'll try having both and see what the difference is ...

[Hamster]

[quote name='OldGit' post='127146' date='Jan 24 2008, 06:10 PM']So I know the tone knob on a P is a simple treble cut but does it start at zero cut or does the capacitor make a difference when the tone is on "full up"?
Cheers[/quote]

Without the cap in place the tone knob will have no effect on your tone. The cap will take away the higher frequencies regardless of the position of the knob.

Hamster

[Hamster]

[quote name='stevebasshead' post='127144' date='Jan 24 2008, 06:09 PM']Fender experts will no doubt answer better but it sounds similar to what Rickenbacker used to do on the bridge pickup. They put a .0047 (that's one more nought than the one you're talking about) capacitor in the bridge pup's tone circuit to remove a shedload of bass and lower mids. A .047 cap like you mention (I would imagine) do the same but to a lesser extent. So it doesn't so much add brightness as lose some bottom end giving a more clear tone.

Ric have recently added the cap back but on a push/pull tone pot so you can switch it in and out of circuit - if the Fender cap is the same sort of idea maybe you'd want to do something similar so you can get the best of both worlds.

Of course, I could be talking complete b*ll*cks, I'm not up to speed on Fender tweaks [/quote]

If you take the cap out of the circuit, you just hear the true output of the pickups - which may be a good or bad thing. You can't remove any of the lower frequencies by just fitting a cap. The much lower value .0047 cap just lets through more highs which may sound better on the bridge pickup.

Hamster

[OldGit]

[quote name='Hamster' post='127171' date='Jan 24 2008, 06:39 PM']If you take the cap out of the circuit, you just hear the true output of the pickups - which may be a good or bad thing. You can't remove any of the lower frequencies by just fitting a cap. The much lower value .0047 cap just lets through more highs which may sound better on the bridge pickup.

Hamster[/quote]

OK


Well its P bass so there's only one pickup
I don't mean I would take the cap out completely but I am wondering if having a different capacitor will give me a different starting point.

So, when the tone control is on full treble/no treble cut does the different capacitor make a difference there or is the difference only effective once some treble cut is applied (ie by turning the tone knob back a bit towards the bass end) ?

[Hamster]

[quote name='OldGit' post='127399' date='Jan 24 2008, 10:52 PM']OK


Well its P bass so there's only one pickup
I don't mean I would take the cap out completely but I am wondering if having a different capacitor will give me a different starting point.

So, when the tone control is on full treble/no treble cut does the different capacitor make a difference there or is the difference only effective once some treble cut is applied (ie by turning the tone knob back a bit towards the bass end) ?[/quote]

Basically, the cap is used to short out a pickup to ground. The cap will let the trebles pass through it to ground, but lower frequencies will not pass through the cap, and so they carry onto the output jack.

The tone pot is the resistor which controls how much of the treble frequencies are bled off to ground. When the tone pot is on 'full treble' the resistance between the cap and ground is high - so only a little of the treble frequencies bleed off. When you turn the pot to 'no treble' then the resistance to ground is much less, so more treble frequencies are bled off, and the bass frequencies gets through to the output jack.

A .047 cap will produce a bassier tone because it will let more treble signal pass though it to ground. A .022 cap will produce a brighter tone because it will let less of the treble signal pass through to ground.

Very small value caps - 0.0010, will only take out very high frequencies.
Larger value caps - 0.10, will start to take out the mids.

Sorry I'm not good at explaining things properly

Hamster

Edited January 25, 2008 by Hamster

[Buzz]

I vote a sticky for Hamsters explaination of how capacitors and the tone pot works on basses. That makes perfect sense as is one of the things I've always wondered about how it exactly works in relation to the cap.

[OldGit]

[quote name='Hamster' post='127450' date='Jan 24 2008, 11:37 PM']Sorry I'm not good at explaining things properly

Hamster[/quote]

Hamster that's very clear. Thanks.
That makes a lot of sence.
I'll have a look at what it's got already and decide where to go from there.
Cheers

Oh anyone got a diagramme for wiring the tone on a push pull with two different capacitors?
I fancy trying that

[stevebasshead]

[quote name='Hamster' post='127171' date='Jan 24 2008, 06:39 PM']If you take the cap out of the circuit, you just hear the true output of the pickups - which may be a good or bad thing. You can't remove any of the lower frequencies by just fitting a cap. The much lower value .0047 cap just lets through more highs which may sound better on the bridge pickup.

Hamster[/quote]

Hi Hamster,

I can't speak for Fender circuits but on Ric's the .0047 cap certainly has the opposite effect of what you're saying above, it definitely removes the lower frequencies. I've done this mod on mine and subsequently changed the standard tone pot for Ric's push/pull one so I can switch the cap in and out. Just out of interest/history Ric did this deliberately back in the 60s to remove bass from the bridge pickup because early bass amps & cabs weren't great at handling lots of bass freq's, and it also helped give Ric's the tone they've become best known for (although they're far more vesatile than they're sometimes given credit for.) Then in the late 70s/early 80s the cap wasn't fitted anymore but as of '06 the 4003s have been fitted with it again as standard albeit with the push/pull tone pot.

Maybe the Fender circuit is wired differently? I don't know, Fenders aren't my thing (but I'm sure I'll succumb at some point, GAS being what it is!)

Regards,
Steve.

[SJA]

if you want more brightness, try a controls bypass switch-

a DPDT switch that takes the vol and tone pots out of the circuit completely, the same as wiring the pickup straight to the jack. this eliminates the loading of the pots on the signal, which tends to drain some treble away.

I've put them in my precisions- there is a noticeable tone difference.

Edited January 25, 2008 by SJA

[OldGit]

[quote name='SJA' post='128019' date='Jan 25 2008, 08:40 PM']if you want more brightness, try a controls bypass switch-

a DPDT switch that takes the vol and tone pots out of the circuit completely, the same as wiring the pickup straight to the jack. this eliminates the loading of the pots on the signal, which tends to drain some treble away.

I've put them in my precisions- there is a noticeable tone difference.[/quote]


can you recommend one and a supplier?
Can I do that with the push pull switch, IE pull it out and it takes the controls out of the circuit?
The Maplins DPDT switch is a foot switch
Where did you fit it and how did you wire it up?
Thanks.

Edited January 25, 2008 by OldGit

[SJA]

[quote name='OldGit' post='128030' date='Jan 25 2008, 09:08 PM']can you recommend one and a supplier?
Can I do that with the push pull switch, IE pull it out and it takes the controls out of the circuit?[/quote]

first , you can experiment to see if there's any tonal difference a controls bypass would make, and then decide whether to go ahead, by taking the pickup lead, unsoldering it from the pots and connecting it direct to the output jack, with the pots disconnected from the jack +ve.


if you can hear an improvement, go ahead with installing a switch so you can select between controls engaged or bypassed;

any DPDT on-on switch will do, I've used a push-pull pot I got from Brandoni (Allparts, WD products and other places will stock it too), and also the mini toggle switches from maplin.

the wiring's quite simple- basically the middle switch terminals have the pickup +ve on one side, the other the output jack +ve,
and when you flick it one way it the pickup connects to the controls input and the controls output goes to the output jack,
and when you flick it the other, the terminals are connected together so the pickup signal goes direct to the jack.

I got the idea from an article by Rick Turner in Bass Player magazine.
there should be a wiring diagram around online somewhere.


I've also got a Fender TBX tone control pot in my Precision Plus ; it's a sort of halfway house to controls bypass- it reduces the loading on the pickups when you turn it clockwise past a centre detent.

but a full controls bypass has a more noticeable effect.

Edited January 26, 2008 by SJA

[Hamster]

[quote name='stevebasshead' post='127776' date='Jan 25 2008, 02:46 PM']I can't speak for Fender circuits but on Ric's the .0047 cap certainly has the opposite effect of what you're saying above, it definitely removes the lower frequencies.[/quote]

Yes, brain hurting whilst eating dinner and typing

In the Rickys, they put a cap in series with the signal and run the resistor parallel to it to make a simple first order high pass tone control to reduce the lower frequencies.

Hamster

[Hamster]

[quote name='OldGit' post='128030' date='Jan 25 2008, 09:08 PM']can you recommend one and a supplier?
Can I do that with the push pull switch, IE pull it out and it takes the controls out of the circuit?
The Maplins DPDT switch is a foot switch
Where did you fit it and how did you wire it up?
Thanks.[/quote]

Here's one somebody made earlier - just a simple replacement with no extra switches or wiring to do [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Genuine-Fender-No-Load-250k-Tone-Control_W0QQitemZ350016460370QQcmdZViewItem"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Genuine-Fender-No-Lo...0QQcmdZViewItem[/url]

To fine tune what tone you want, just try swapping out a few different value caps - 0.1uf, 0.047uf, 0.022uf. 0.0047uf. Only cost 10p each.

Hamster

[Guest]

You could try one of these I used one in a single pickup bass very good, one thing i liked was that you were a click away from a known change in tone. You can replace the tone control with it or wire it along with the tone control. They come with leads pre-soldered so are easy to fit.
have a look here[url="http://www.has-sound.com/index.htm"]HAS SOUND[/url]

[OldGit]

[quote name='steve-norris' post='128137' date='Jan 26 2008, 08:33 AM']You could try one of these I used one in a single pickup bass very good, one thing i liked was that you were a click away from a known change in tone. You can replace the tone control with it or wire it along with the tone control. They come with leads pre-soldered so are easy to fit.
have a look here[url="http://www.has-sound.com/index.htm"]HAS SOUND[/url][/quote]

Oh wow that looks good 5 tones and an overdrive and a chicken head too!
P bass KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) is looking less attractive the more I see

[OldGit]

Thanks to all I'll go and have a go at some of these ideas now

[stevebasshead]

[quote name='Hamster' post='128117' date='Jan 26 2008, 01:14 AM']Yes, brain hurting whilst eating dinner and typing

In the Rickys, they put a cap in series with the signal and run the resistor parallel to it to make a simple first order high pass tone control to reduce the lower frequencies.

Hamster[/quote]

Cheers Hamster, that makes more sense to me now

OldGit, sounds like you're going to have some fun - enjoy

[OldGit]

[quote name='Hamster' post='128119' date='Jan 26 2008, 01:23 AM']Here's one somebody made earlier - just a simple replacement with no extra switches or wiring to do [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Genuine-Fender-No-Load-250k-Tone-Control_W0QQitemZ350016460370QQcmdZViewItem"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Genuine-Fender-No-Lo...0QQcmdZViewItem[/url]

To fine tune what tone you want, just try swapping out a few different value caps - 0.1uf, 0.047uf, 0.022uf. 0.0047uf. Only cost 10p each.

Hamster[/quote]


I've ordered one of those - its a tone knob that is a total bypass at 10 and then switches in the cap from 9-1 ..
I have a .0475 in there at the mo and this comes with a 0.022 so I'll see what that does.

With the rotary control with the various capacitors, I'd need a rotary tone pot too yeah?

Did it make a serious difference to the sound with each cap or was it subtle?

Edited January 28, 2008 by OldGit

[OldGit]

Ok fitted the Fender knob that gives direct signal (apart from the vol pot anyway) and .. well it still sounds bassy.
I guess I will have to try my old Fender P Pup in it to see if that makes a difference ...

Edited January 29, 2008 by OldGit

[OldGit]

Ah!

From the "please explain pots" thread
"That said, my Squier 70's VMJ has 500k for single coils. Gives a Brighter edge to dark-sounding pick-ups... "

Would a 500k pot brighten my darker sounding P pickup?

[Hamster]

Yes - it will allow more highs through. If that doesn't work, try a 1meg.

Hamster