BottomE Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Hi, i want to keep this simple and as clear as possible. Guy buys bass from me off of E(vil)Bay. I post it insured. He receives and signs for it. He sends me email saying that the bass is fine but the case is in very bad condition. I reply saying that the bass is the item that he has bid on - the case which i except is not in great condition is only a means of transporting the bass but perfectly adequate to protect an instrument during transportation. He raises a dispute. For me it seems like he is scamming me so i have to buy a new case (thats what he asked for in the dispute) for him. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul S Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 I think it entirely depends upon what you said about the case in the listing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manwithaxe Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 What did the listing about the case? If you only mentioned the bass for sale and it turned up in a case (no matter what the condition) then he got a bonus. Ebay/paypal will review the listing against the dispute, so it should turn out okay. There are those out there that will always try it on....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrenleepoole Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 You'll be fine. I guess it's all down to the item description. As long as you've stated exactly what he was getting, there won't be an issue. Call his bluff and ask him to send the item back, fully insured. Let's see if he's prepared to shell out £20-30 on posting an item back against the the cost of a free case. When it arrives back say the bass is damaged and not in the condition it was posted as. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoying Twit Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 (edited) I've heard of many cases where Ebay buyers try it on, and back down if the seller calls their bluff. You could say to them that if they're not satisfied, they can return the bass and case to you, and you'll make a full refund of the original purchase price and original postage (but not the postage to return the item). It's not my money involved, but my guess is that the buyer will back down. However, they may get "revenge" by leaving negative feedback. But, if they do, at least you can follow up (truthfully) with "I offered you a full refund, which you declined. What else can I do?" Edit: Ah, I had this post in a window while I was working, and DLP beat me to it!!! Make this a +1 post then. Edited February 3, 2011 by Annoying Twit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted February 3, 2011 Author Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='manwithaxe' post='1113679' date='Feb 3 2011, 11:44 AM']What did the listing about the case? If you only mentioned the bass for sale and it turned up in a case (no matter what the condition) then he got a bonus. Ebay/paypal will review the listing against the dispute, so it should turn out okay. There are those out there that will always try it on.......[/quote] The listing said that "the bass will be shipped in a hard case." That is the only mention of the case in the listing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynepunkdude Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='BottomE' post='1113719' date='Feb 3 2011, 12:16 PM']The listing said that "the bass will be shipped in a hard case." That is the only mention of the case in the listing.[/quote] And it was, the guy is trying it on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='waynepunkdude' post='1113730' date='Feb 3 2011, 12:21 PM']And it was, the guy is trying it on.[/quote] Agreed. Let him bitch to ebay if he wants, he'll lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franzbassist Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='waynepunkdude' post='1113730' date='Feb 3 2011, 12:21 PM']And it was, the guy is trying it on.[/quote] Absolutely. [i]Caveat emptor[/i], as always, applies; if he wanted to know the condition of the case he should have asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted February 3, 2011 Author Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='walbassist' post='1113826' date='Feb 3 2011, 01:28 PM']Absolutely. [i]Caveat emptor[/i], as always, applies; if he wanted to know the condition of the case he should have asked.[/quote] Indeed, and also why did he sign for it? It was insured... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck_stones Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Indeed, you've got nothing to worry about there BottomE. Of course ensure that in any interactions or correspondence you kill him with kindness and stick to the facts, but the auction mentioned it would be shipped in a hardcase and it was. eBay would definitely not find anything wrong with what you've done. Sounds like another cheeky eBayer trying it on. I suppose since the case condition wasn't specified, he imagined that he was getting a brand spanking new case or something and feels jibbed with what he got; but at the end of the day, he got what he paid for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Burrito Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='chuck_stones' post='1114134' date='Feb 3 2011, 05:00 PM']Indeed, you've got nothing to worry about there BottomE. Of course ensure that in any interactions or correspondence you kill him with kindness and stick to the facts, but the auction mentioned it would be shipped in a hardcase and it was. eBay would definitely not find anything wrong with what you've done.[/quote] I agree with this. In the past I've done the same in a listing but actually stated that the case is purely for shipping purposes and actually added that the case should not be considered as part of the deal - if you like it keep it but it's not a reason for buying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algmusic Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 these kind of idiots annoy me... I agree, ask him to send the bass back then you will refund assuming the bass is in the same condition minus the P&P.. You'll be fine in this dipuse.. Evil bay yes.. the buyers and sellers are worse.. well some are nice ;-) us lot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumnote Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='algmusic' post='1114156' date='Feb 3 2011, 05:14 PM']these kind of idiots annoy me... I agree, ask him to send the bass back then you will refund assuming the bass is in the same condition minus the P&P.. You'll be fine in this dipuse.. Evil bay yes.. the buyers and sellers are worse.. well some are nice ;-) us lot[/quote] If I remember correctly the ebay terms are that the buyer is responsible for the return of an item, but if you agree a refund, you have to refund the original P&P I would let him raise a dispute with paypal, and answer accordingly. You said it was shipped in a case, and it was, but it would help you in the future in a similar situation you described it as coming with a scruffy case, or case for transit only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreeneKing Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='bumnote' post='1114318' date='Feb 3 2011, 06:56 PM']If I remember correctly the ebay terms are that the buyer is responsible for the return of an item, but if you agree a refund, you have to refund the original P&P I would let him raise a dispute with paypal, and answer accordingly. You said it was shipped in a case, and it was, but it would help you in the future in a similar situation you described it as coming with a scruffy case, or case for transit only.[/quote] I agree. Playing devil's advocate, if I bought a bass advertised with a hard case I'd expect a serviceable item. It would depend on the bass too . If it was a newish and expensive bass I'd hope to receive the original case in good nick. So I can see where he's coming from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macko1968 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 I wish I could be as confident as everyone else, but I can't. Ebay & Paypal are bastards to sellers in dispute cases, they almost always find in the buyers favour. In the shell of a nut, unless you describe in detail any cosmetic/functional issues with an item then Paypal will expect it to be perfect, it it aint they cite "non-disclosure" & you lose. The buyer is clearly a dick if he expects a case to be perfect & he should have checked first, but ebay don't go with the Caveat emptor approach. I speak from first-hand experience. I think Paypal will take the usual spineless approach & instruct you to refund. You can dig your heels in & fight to delay matters but the chances are the little twat will be out gigging your bass & treating it like crap for a couple of months in the meantime. Out of interest can you name & shame the buyer, he has a place reserved in my banned bidders list. Good luck & keep us posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted February 3, 2011 Author Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='Macko1968' post='1114347' date='Feb 3 2011, 07:15 PM']I wish I could be as confident as everyone else, but I can't. Ebay & Paypal are bastards to sellers in dispute cases, they almost always find in the buyers favour. In the shell of a nut, unless you describe in detail any cosmetic/functional issues with an item then Paypal will expect it to be perfect, it it aint they cite "non-disclosure" & you lose. The buyer is clearly a dick if he expects a case to be perfect & he should have checked first, but ebay don't go with the Caveat emptor approach. I speak from first-hand experience. I think Paypal will take the usual spineless approach & instruct you to refund. You can dig your heels in & fight to delay matters but the chances are the little twat will be out gigging your bass & treating it like crap for a couple of months in the meantime. Out of interest can you name & shame the buyer, he has a place reserved in my banned bidders list. Good luck & keep us posted.[/quote] Thanks. I am not confident either although the buyer is painting himself as a pretentious twat in the dispute emails and that might go in my favour. If i'd have known i was selling the bass to a case player then i wouldn't have bothered. It just stinks of someone trying it on and left me really bitter about the whole thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macko1968 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Unquestionably he sounds like a chancer & I know it's really frustrating when you know it but have to convince Paypal. If it all goes wrong you know his address & I know someone who can get you a gun . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minkey1980 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 this is just why I hate Ebay so much. I mean, if he was that bothered about the case he would have made the effort to come and see the bass and case before bidding. Unless you've promised him a brand new spotless case and he's got the ares end one you'll be fine. Its just rubbish how he can have you over the barroll with negative feedback and theres no way of giving him any. alas i can recall when it was fairly new and it was cheaper to use, people treated each other with respect and you could trust what ever anyone told you..... I sold a Gretsch guitar which had a slight mark on the neck, he must have got it home and thought of a way to make some money cos he complained that it was worse and i ended up giving him the postage back (only £15) and he was like, yeah thats fine, cheers !!!! obviously not that bothered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cameltoe Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 (edited) [quote name='GreeneKing' post='1114343' date='Feb 3 2011, 07:12 PM']I agree. Playing devil's advocate, if I bought a bass advertised with a hard case I'd expect a serviceable item. It would depend on the bass too . If it was a newish and expensive bass I'd hope to receive the original case in good nick. So I can see where he's coming from.[/quote] No I don't agree with this. I think you should be fine, although it entirely depends on the way ebay view this kind of thing, and not everyone seems to have confidence in their 'unique' legal viewpoint. I would explain, to the seller and paypal, that only the bass was for sale, only the bass was bid on and only the bass was won. A hard case was provided for shipping reasons and nothing was implied in the item description for it to be seen as anything other than a means to transport the item. Therefore condition is irrelevant, as it was only a means to protect the guitar and should be viewed upon as packaging materials, which is exactly how it was represented it in the item description. Would he return it to you if the cardboard box wasn't in as good condition as he thought? If the bubbles in the bubblewrap were too small? (I will include 3.2 metres of premium grade bubble wrap, bought second hand but with only minor evidence of previous usage. No popped bubbles and no sellotape damage.....) I kinda agree with burritobass in that to avoid complicated sellers, maybe you should spell this out in the description, but TBH if you need to start making a list of the things that aren't included in the sale, the item decription would be impossible (Kitchen table in photo- not included in sale. Cat on sofa next to guitar licking his balls- not included in sale). If you're advertising a guitar WITH a hardcase, then unless stated otherwise, I'd expect it to be the correct hardcase for the guitar (If the guitar should have come with a hardcase from new) in a condition to match the condition of the guitar. If it was an aftermarket case, or one in a shabby condition, then I'd expect to be told. Edited February 3, 2011 by cameltoe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumnote Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Every time I see a dispute over an ebay purchase I try to see both sides of the dispute. I have seen a few here where the original poster has raised an issue, and a lot of people respond that the other party is trying a scam. without looking at the original listing, none of us can really comment as to if the complaint is fair The buyer has made a purchase based on the information you have given him, and if the information is incomplete, then the buyer has a right to complain. It all depends on the 'The goods must be as described' You have to look at the listing, put yourself in the other guys place, and try and read the advert objectively. If you have advertised a FenderJazz MIA in immaculate condition, complete with hard case, then I would expect a reasonable condition case. If you said it was a reliced Jazz bass with Mojo, I would probably expect a case to match. While I dont agree with everything Ebay does, their resolution system is not that bad. You do have the choice of giving a refund, in which you can get all your fees back and then selling it, or see what paypal says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 You Should've said 'will ship in case that's worn, but secure' or something along those lines. And supply pics of case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreeneKing Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='cameltoe' post='1114417' date='Feb 3 2011, 07:58 PM']No I don't agree with this. I think you should be fine, although it entirely depends on the way ebay view this kind of thing, and not everyone seems to have confidence in their 'unique' legal viewpoint. I would explain, to the seller and paypal, that only the bass was for sale, only the bass was bid on and only the bass was won. A hard case was provided for shipping reasons and nothing was implied in the item description for it to be seen as anything other than a means to transport the item. Therefore condition is irrelevant, as it was only a means to protect the guitar and should be viewed upon as packaging materials, which is exactly how it was represented it in the item description. Would he return it to you if the cardboard box wasn't in as good condition as he thought? If the bubbles in the bubblewrap were too small? (I will include 3.2 metres of premium grade bubble wrap, bought second hand but with only minor evidence of previous usage. No popped bubbles and no sellotape damage.....) I kinda agree with burritobass in that to avoid complicated sellers, maybe you should spell this out in the description, but TBH if you need to start making a list of the things that aren't included in the sale, the item decription would be impossible (Kitchen table in photo- not included in sale. Cat on sofa next to guitar licking his balls- not included in sale). If you're advertising a guitar WITH a hardcase, then unless stated otherwise, I'd expect it to be the correct hardcase for the guitar (If the guitar should have come with a hardcase from new) in a condition to match the condition of the guitar. If it was an aftermarket case, or one in a shabby condition, then I'd expect to be told.[/quote] I don't give a damn about what YOU agree with. The OP asked for opinions and I gave mine. There is I feel a tendency to want to be popular and side with and support the OP in this matter but in reality that isn't helpful. As for comments like 'Out of interest can you name & shame the buyer, he has a place reserved in my banned bidders list'. I do wonder. We have one side of a story and as is not unusual on BC folk are forming a lynch mob. Get real Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macko1968 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='GreeneKing' post='1114469' date='Feb 3 2011, 08:36 PM']I don't give a damn about what YOU agree with. The OP asked for opinions and I gave mine. There is I feel a tendency to want to be popular and side with and support the OP in this matter but in reality that isn't helpful. As for comments like 'Out of interest can you name & shame the buyer, he has a place reserved in my banned bidders list'. I do wonder. We have one side of a story and as is not unusual on BC folk are forming a lynch mob. Get real Peter[/quote] I don't give a damn about what YOU wonder about. The OP asked for opinions & gave mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrenleepoole Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 eBay and Paypal will protect the seller, the notion that they're biased towards the buyer is nonsense. I once sold a neck on eBay which i believed was an original Fender neck, it sold for £115 or there abouts. The buyer was in France, pestered me for days about how long it was taking to arrive - it was the height of the postal strikes. It arrives and he complains it's not original. Fine I say, send it back at your cost and full issue will be refunded. No deal, full refund first or no neck return he says. So a dispute is raised and all hell breaks loose with accusations that the item was listed incorrectly and other rubbish that the frets were worn even though there were masses of pictures, it's listed as used so on and so on... In the dispute with paypal and eBay I raised my concerns that if I issued the refund first I'd have no guarantee that the neck would be return - I could at least re sell the neck as parts or stripped etc and recoup some costs. I kept all my correspondence, some 20+ emails and kept everything above board and very polite. Everything was found in my favour as they believed as I did, that he bought the neck in error and hadn't done his homework right and was trying to get out of the deal. They could of gone the other way, but they didn't. had the neck been returned he would of had a refund, but his stubbornness cost him dear. I nearly offered the refund out of kindness but thought f*** it, he was a bast**d about it, his loss. You have nothing to worry about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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