The Very Best Wireless Systems

[BigRedX]

It looks as though my band are graduating to bigger stages and therefore I'm going need to start thinking about a good wireless system.

So what's the very best wireless system for the bass?

Must be able to cope with low B.
Must have the least impact on the audio signal from the bass.
Must be rack-mountable and fit into a 1U space.
Must allow for easy switching between at least 2 instruments so I can have a transmitter on each bass and switch between them on the receiver.
Must comply with the latest and forthcoming wireless legislation.

At the moment cost is not really a consideration. If the system that does what I need the best is expensive so be it.

So what system(s) should I be looking at?

[crez5150]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1113993' date='Feb 3 2011, 03:27 PM']It looks as though my band are graduating to bigger stages and therefore I'm going need to start thinking about a good wireless system.

So what's the very best wireless system for the bass?

Must be able to cope with low B.
Must have the least impact on the audio signal from the bass.
Must be rack-mountable and fit into a 1U space.
Must allow for easy switching between at least 2 instruments so I can have a transmitter on each bass and switch between them on the receiver.
Must comply with the latest and forthcoming wireless legislation.

At the moment cost is not really a consideration. If the system that does what I need the best is expensive so be it.

So what system(s) should I be looking at?[/quote]


If your band are getting serious gigs then really you need to be going down the Sennheiser route as this is the product that gets specified for most tours UK these days. The sound engineers will know how they work, how to mix them and most importantly how to adjust the frequency of the system so that it's not interfering with the rest of the radio systems that are being used.

You have two options really G3 100 series or G3 500 Series. The 500 series is the flagship of the Evolution range and is more expensive due to the features. The 100 series retails for around £500 pre channel.

[Noisyjon]

[quote name='crez5150' post='1114095' date='Feb 3 2011, 04:28 PM']If your band are getting serious gigs then really you need to be going down the Sennheiser route as this is the product that gets specified for most tours UK these days. The sound engineers will know how they work, how to mix them and most importantly how to adjust the frequency of the system so that it's not interfering with the rest of the radio systems that are being used.

You have two options really G3 100 series or G3 500 Series. The 500 series is the flagship of the Evolution range and is more expensive due to the features. The 100 series retails for around £500 pre channel.[/quote]


+1 to all of that

[ezbass]

Bear in mind that usuable frequencies for wireless are changing in 2012 from channel 69 (854 - 862 MHz) to channel 38 (606 - 614 MHz), so any system you're looking at should operate in the new bandwidth.

[crez5150]

[quote name='ezbass' post='1114103' date='Feb 3 2011, 04:36 PM']Bear in mind that usuable frequencies for wireless are changing in 2012 from channel 69 (854 - 862 MHz) to channel 38 (606 - 614 MHz), so any system you're looking at should operate in the new bandwidth.[/quote]


That is true..... This will be confusing for some people as lots of product on the market currently that cover's channel 69 and also include channel 70 de-reg frequencies (such as Sennheiser Evolution G2).
If you are happy to carry on using the de-reg frequencies then you have a choice of between 4 and 6 channels. If you want to go down the Channel 38 route then you will need to buy an operating license for the equipment.

I'm sure I put some info up here before about it somewhere... probably worth searching.

[BigRedX]

Thanks!

I suspected that Sennheiser were the ones to look at, and now I know which models in particular.

Do the ones you've recommended cover both the current allowed frequencies and the ones that will be coming in next year?

[rmshaw37]

i have a line 6 g90 - the rack one and in 6 months of using it on all stage sizes, its never EVER dropped out yet! NO loss in signal, in fact it can sound better than a lead!

our guitar player uses the g50 (pedal version), in fact lots of guitards we know use them, and no one has ever lost signal or moaned about tone yet

[PaulE]

[quote name='rmshaw37' post='1116403' date='Feb 5 2011, 12:10 PM']i have a line 6 g90 - the rack one and in 6 months of using it on all stage sizes, its never EVER dropped out yet! NO loss in signal, in fact it can sound better than a lead!

our guitar player uses the g50 (pedal version), in fact lots of guitards we know use them, and no one has ever lost signal or moaned about tone yet[/quote]

g90 is amazing. has lead simulation too.

[crez5150]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1115592' date='Feb 4 2011, 05:02 PM']Thanks!

I suspected that Sennheiser were the ones to look at, and now I know which models in particular.

Do the ones you've recommended cover both the current allowed frequencies and the ones that will be coming in next year?[/quote]


No unfortunately not as the frequency bands are too far apart. You have to make the decision to either go with Channel 38 (requires license) or channel 70 (de-regulated) versions. You can currently buy channel 38 Evolution systems but they are not operational all over the UK so you would need to check.

[citymariner]

G90.

[Dood]

Not that I've been able to try them, but on paper at least it sounds like the 'digital' units that are coming on to the market appear to be promising a wider frequency and dynamic range than the analogue (VHF UHF) counterparts. Anyone care to comment?

[aldude]

[quote name='dood' post='1118476' date='Feb 7 2011, 12:26 AM']Not that I've been able to try them, but on paper at least it sounds like the 'digital' units that are coming on to the market appear to be promising a wider frequency and dynamic range than the analogue (VHF UHF) counterparts. Anyone care to comment?[/quote]

I have a Line6 G50 - about £360 from GAK. It's the best thing I have ever bought - it's as if it is wired not wireless. No noticeable change in tone at all - well I didn't notice any anyway Even copes well with bottom B string that's down tuned to A.

It works in the Wifi band which is about 2.4GHz I think. No problem with interference so far. I would recommend this to anyone!

[woodster]

When you say "the very best wireles system"... it depends on your budget.

Both Sure and Nady do some high end systems...

[BigRedX]

Thanks for all the additional info. I see I'm going to have to do some serious reading on all the different channel and frequency regulations to make sure I'm legal, future proofed and have picked the system that's least susceptible to interference.

I have a few more questions...

crez5150: how does switching between 2 or more transmitters work? I downloaded the user manual but I couldn't find out how to do this. Also can the transmitter pack be attached to your guitar strap? Again the manual isn't very clear on this.

To everyone using the Line 6 system: I have two concerns. Firstly how robust is the signal? It appears to use the same frequency as computer WiFi which can be very susceptible to interference from other networks. With the proliferation of WiFi hotspots has anyone had nay problems with this? Secondly is anyone in the UK actually selling the transmitter packs separately yet? If you search for the transmitter on it's own all you seem to find are threads on the Line 6 forums complaining about the lack of availability of this item on its own. Also can the transmitter be attached to your guitar strap? Again the manual is rather vague on how this fits.

woodster: For the purpose of finding out what is available the price isn't a concern. If there's system that meets all my practical requirements then I'll look at how cost effective it is. Do you have any recommendations from the Shure and Nady ranges?

[Bankai]

The digital systems will offer a much better transmission quality. Not only this, they are less dependent on line-of-sight as analogue systems.

If you've got the money, there's no real alternative!

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Bankai' post='1119156' date='Feb 7 2011, 05:42 PM']The digital systems... are less dependent on line-of-sight as analogue systems.[/quote]

Can you explain this more fully please. I thought the only difference between the digital and analogue systems was the format in which the audio signal was transmitted.

As another point, from what I can see all the makers of digital wireless systems have missed a trick by not including a digital out on the receiver. In my rig the next component in the signal chain is a Pod XT Pro which has digital inputs and therefore I could skip a D-A and A-D conversion which would probably be beneficial to the sound quality.

So are there any digital wireless systems with either AES/EBU or S/PDIF digital outputs?

[crez5150]

[quote name='Bankai' post='1119156' date='Feb 7 2011, 05:42 PM']The digital systems will offer a much better transmission quality. Not only this, they are less dependent on line-of-sight as analogue systems.

If you've got the money, there's no real alternative![/quote]


Fail I'm afraid..... Actually when a digital system drops off.... it drops off completely unlike an analogue systems that will transmit interference. Digital is all well and good but there are several factors to worry about.

1) 99% of all toursound companies will not use Digital wireless as its not yet proven as the standard UHF systems are.
2) UHF will generally transmit further
3) generally the low end digital systems such as Line 6, you can really only get 12 systems/channels working at once
4) if you use 2.4/5gig systems on stage you run the high risk of knocking out other networks operating on or near the same frequency banding. not good if your FOH engineer is using wireless control for his line array/main pa speaker controller

[crez5150]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1119102' date='Feb 7 2011, 05:00 PM']Thanks for all the additional info. I see I'm going to have to do some serious reading on all the different channel and frequency regulations to make sure I'm legal, future proofed and have picked the system that's least susceptible to interference.

I have a few more questions...

crez5150: how does switching between 2 or more transmitters work? I downloaded the user manual but I couldn't find out how to do this. Also can the transmitter pack be attached to your guitar strap? Again the manual isn't very clear on this.

To everyone using the Line 6 system: I have two concerns. Firstly how robust is the signal? It appears to use the same frequency as computer WiFi which can be very susceptible to interference from other networks. With the proliferation of WiFi hotspots has anyone had nay problems with this? Secondly is anyone in the UK actually selling the transmitter packs separately yet? If you search for the transmitter on it's own all you seem to find are threads on the Line 6 forums complaining about the lack of availability of this item on its own. Also can the transmitter be attached to your guitar strap? Again the manual is rather vague on how this fits.

woodster: For the purpose of finding out what is available the price isn't a concern. If there's system that meets all my practical requirements then I'll look at how cost effective it is. Do you have any recommendations from the Shure and Nady ranges?[/quote]

You can have as many transmitters as you like if you are using one receiver, just make sure they are set to the same frequency allocation. you just switch the transmitter off when you are not using it

[JPJ]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1119102' date='Feb 7 2011, 05:00 PM']To everyone using the Line 6 system: I have two concerns. Firstly how robust is the signal? It appears to use the same frequency as computer WiFi which can be very susceptible to interference from other networks. With the proliferation of WiFi hotspots has anyone had nay problems with this? Secondly is anyone in the UK actually selling the transmitter packs separately yet? If you search for the transmitter on it's own all you seem to find are threads on the Line 6 forums complaining about the lack of availability of this item on its own. Also can the transmitter be attached to your guitar strap? Again the manual is rather vague on how this fits.[/quote]

Line6 G50 User, five string active basses tuned BEADG. No problems with mine. I get to go for considerable little walks with mine (its a band thing) and have yet to suffer signal drop out. To answer your specific questions:
1) I have not had a single problem with signal drop or interference including playing in venues that offer a free wifi hotspot for their customers.
2) Soundslive in Newcastle were selling the separate transmitter packs, but I haven't been in for a while (GAS avoidance) so cannot be sure of current stock.
3) Yes, the transmitter comes with a metal clip for attaching to your strap/belt/etc.

Hope this helps

[Bankai]

[quote name='crez5150' post='1119535' date='Feb 7 2011, 09:57 PM']Fail I'm afraid..... Actually when a digital system drops off.... it drops off completely unlike an analogue systems that will transmit interference.[/quote]
A digital system is either 1 or 0, on or off. The quality is FAR increased as a result of the transmissions being more robust. Just look at the quality of DAB compared to standard broadcast for evidence!

[quote name='crez5150' post='1119535' date='Feb 7 2011, 09:57 PM']UHF will generally transmit further[/quote]
Actually VHF transmits further but at the wattage output you get from wireless systems, the VHF/UHF/SHF difference is irrelevant. So that's not the case. The only thing that is of benefit is that the SHF waves of a digital system running at 2.4GHz etc. are far more penetrating and bounce around a lot. This means that the signals are much better in urban or audience environments.

[quote name='crez5150' post='1119535' date='Feb 7 2011, 09:57 PM']generally the low end digital systems such as Line 6, you can really only get 12 systems/channels working at once[/quote]
Digital systems are far more compact in their bandwidth usage. You can get more channels in less frequency space compared to analogue.

[quote name='crez5150' post='1119535' date='Feb 7 2011, 09:57 PM']if you use 2.4/5gig systems on stage you run the high risk of knocking out other networks operating on or near the same frequency banding. not good if your FOH engineer is using wireless control for his line array/main pa speaker controller[/quote]
This is true for all broadcasts, it just so happens that 2.4GHz is used a lot for other applications whereas the bands used by analogue wireless equipment are only occupied by wireless equipment. It just means you have to make sure that you are on an unoccupied channel. And there are enough that this shouldn't be too hard.


So what was that, I failed? I'm not sure that was the politest way you could have put it, especially seeing as you were wrong.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Bankai

[crez5150]

[quote name='Bankai' post='1120116' date='Feb 8 2011, 02:22 PM']A digital system is either 1 or 0, on or off. The quality is FAR increased as a result of the transmissions being more robust. Just look at the quality of DAB compared to standard broadcast for evidence!


Actually VHF transmits further but at the wattage output you get from wireless systems, the VHF/UHF/SHF difference is irrelevant. So that's not the case. The only thing that is of benefit is that the SHF waves of a digital system running at 2.4GHz etc. are far more penetrating and bounce around a lot. This means that the signals are much better in urban or audience environments.


Digital systems are far more compact in their bandwidth usage. You can get more channels in less frequency space compared to analogue.


This is true for all broadcasts, it just so happens that 2.4GHz is used a lot for other applications whereas the bands used by analogue wireless equipment are only occupied by wireless equipment. It just means you have to make sure that you are on an unoccupied channel. And there are enough that this shouldn't be too hard.


So what was that, I failed? I'm not sure that was the politest way you could have put it, especially seeing as you were wrong.[/quote]

I do not believe I was wrong just pointing out some stuff fella... Having sold and specified Wireless equipment for the last 20 years


1)A digital system is either 1 or 0, on or off. The quality is FAR increased as a result of the transmissions being more robust. Just look at the quality of DAB compared to standard broadcast for evidence!

[b]Indeed but that's my point exactly, it's either on or off.... if you lose signal its off..... With UHF chances are that you'll still get an audible signal through the system. Ask how many people have trouble getting interference with DAB.... it's either on or off!![/b]

2) Actually VHF transmits further but at the wattage output you get from wireless systems, the VHF/UHF/SHF difference is irrelevant. So that's not the case. The only thing that is of benefit is that the SHF waves of a digital system running at 2.4GHz etc. are far more penetrating and bounce around a lot. This means that the signals are much better in urban or audience environments.

[b]Yes VHF transmits further AND is generally better than UHF but is seen as old technology.... bit like Betamax ) Yes 2.4 is more penetrating and thats the issue. Also why a lot of Toursound companies are not happy using digital yet. It will F**K with their other wireless equipment. Also in Urban areas it's a bigger problem due to all the networks you are likely to encounter. [/b]

3)Digital systems are far more compact in their bandwidth usage. You can get more channels in less frequency space compared to analogue.

I[b]ndeed they are but mostly at the top end of the market. Most of the users here will be using Line six or alike, they won't be using systems like the DMS700 from AKG due to cost. Line six will not presently handle more that 12 systems which is fine for the pub band/function band/covers band market but not at large performance end which the OP was talking about.[/b]


I think what you have to understand is that there is a difference between products that are sold in a music shop and products that are used by toursound companies. The lower end equipment, and I'm not disputing line6 at all.... is great for most of the guys playing weekend gigs... but if you were to stick that on tour it wouldn't last a week. Why don't you have a look at your local toursound company's gear list for wireless. It'll be Sennheiser Evolution/3000/5000 or Shure UHF-R series. THat's pretty much the standard these days.

See how many toursound companies that have gone all digital??

[steve]

[quote name='JPJ' post='1120067' date='Feb 8 2011, 01:41 PM']Line6 G50 User, five string active basses tuned BEADG. No problems with mine. I get to go for considerable little walks with mine (its a band thing) and have yet to suffer signal drop out. To answer your specific questions:
1) I have not had a single problem with signal drop or interference including playing in venues that offer a free wifi hotspot for their customers.
2) Soundslive in Newcastle were selling the separate transmitter packs, but I haven't been in for a while (GAS avoidance) so cannot be sure of current stock.
3) Yes, the transmitter comes with a metal clip for attaching to your strap/belt/etc.

Hope this helps [/quote]

1) +1 here, soundwise I can't fault mine
2) can't comment, I got mine used on here
3) I have issues with the strap clip, didn't really work with my mono strap, and I lost the tx unit on two separate occasions at different gigs. The tx dropped onto a solid floor on one of them, but wasn't damaged in any way. I ended up buying a pouch to solve that little problem

[LiamPodmore]

[quote name='crez5150' post='1122758' date='Feb 10 2011, 03:38 PM']...but if you were to stick that on tour it wouldn't last a week...[/quote]

Zoltan Bathory of Five Finger Death Punch has been using 2 Relay G90 systems since they came out, on tour, every night, with no problems. I have seen a few others using them aswell but i can't remember their names.

Liam