Jeff Berlin Banned from Talkbass Shock!

[Kiwi]

BTW I think the issue for Jeff is credibility and professionalism. I think the issue for his critics is the lack of empathy in his written communication. I'll put that in context by saying that I know for a fact that Jeff is THE most dedicated father you could imagine.

Jeff if you ever get to reading this, there's a simple template to follow.

1) Acknowledge the other parties view and how you understand it.
2) Put forward your view in terms while also indicating respect towards the other parties.
3) Defend your position as passionately as you like without conflicting with points one and two.

Simples.

[Spoombung]

[quote name='Jase' post='1114783' date='Feb 4 2011, 12:44 AM']What Kev has missed in the copy and paste post which wouldn't have been on FB because it had been talked about a while ago, is the fact that I've mentioned in the past to Jeff and Dann about the Janek episode on here...I mentioned about the basschat thread on FB tonight, Jeff relates, that's it just guys talking on a Jeff post.[/quote]

Ah, I'm getting a clearer picture now. It [i]did[/i] appear like a fresh FB bulletin thing via JB yesterday, for some reason.

Speaking of the issue mentioned therein, I always seem to mss these controversial moments and haven't noticed all these vicious attacks on 'pro players'!

[wateroftyne]

This sums it up for me:

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='1114845' date='Feb 4 2011, 05:57 AM']I think the issue for his critics is the lack of empathy in his written communication.[/quote]

...which isn't a great trait to have if you're on a mission to 'educate'.

[Doctor J]

Gah. I read three pages of that talkbass garbage before I simply had to stop to preserve my sanity... I just hope it didn't push something important out the other side of my brain

[Bilbo]

Its one of life's difficulties, ime. Anyone who tries to have an intelligent, adult conversation, particularly on the internet, is often (always?) undermined by those who don't take the issue as seriously or who cannot take criticism without their ego feeling threatened. Its worse on the internet because the number of people engaging in any debate is potentially massive but it is just as difficult in the real world. I have always found it refreshing to work with a musician who will listen to your observations and try adjustments to make the music better. The better a player is, usually the more open they are to suggestion. Its the mediocre/weak players who are trying to justify their inadequacies that tend to be more easily threatened and resort to name-calling and flippancy. But its not just music, its pretty much any subject.

[JTUK]

Well, I don't know why they would find the time..but assuming some of them did, I can see a few plus points in being on a forum and a big minefield to dodge.

There might always be some smart arse who is trying to trip them up..and IMV, some U.S sites are notorious for this, that I can see why you really shouldn't bother..rather than why you should.


FWIW, I like his playing..I'll listen to his views and then decide if I agree...a bit like you have to do on here.
There are opinions and opinions...and then there are agendas.

You have to laugh at it sometimes..!! then go and do something more useful...

[Clarky]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='1114841' date='Feb 4 2011, 05:03 AM']I don't blame the pros for avoiding forums, I would as well if in their [i][b]Hi-tops[/b][/i].[/quote]
Fixed

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='yybass' post='1114590' date='Feb 3 2011, 09:45 PM']Yep, in my eyes, I saw him in Victoria, London with Bruford in 1982, great bass player.[/quote]
Yep I saw Jeff in 80's with John McLaughlan and an unkown percussionist and they were excellent.
Typical jazz stuff and although I was into Rock and progressive at the time I could still appreciate the musicianship.

I guess not to everyone's taste but that's what makes bass playing interesting - to us anyways - LOL !!!

Dave

[Bilbo]

That 'unknown' percussionist was Trilok Gurtu from the US band Oregon. He is a genius. I recommend their cd Ecotopia.

PS My bass teacher was a PR man and he knew I was a JB fan so got me a ticket for the Royal Festival Hall in the front row right in front of Berlin. I spent the whole gig watching Trilok. A stunning musician.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1115039' date='Feb 4 2011, 10:48 AM']That 'unknown' percussionist was Trilok Gurtu from the US band Oregon. He is a genius. I recommend their cd Ecotopia.

PS My bass teacher was a PR man and he knew I was a JB fan so got me a ticket for the Royal Festival Hall in the front row right in front of Berlin. I spent the whole gig watching Trilok. A stunning musician.[/quote]

funny how these percussionists can get to you...

Most compelling solo I ever saw was about 20 mins by Steve Thornton at a Ritenour gig.
Also on that date was Ernie Watts, Abe L, Don Grusin and it was Thornton who stole the show.
Alex Acuna on drums when I really wanted to see Gadd..but still.

[Gust0o]

Maybe we could offer him some kind of asylum?

[xilddx]

What a storm in a bloody teacup.

Pros will tell you time and again that they are people, like everyone else. Because they are in the limelight to varying degrees leaves them open to many more people's opinion and some can take the negatives better than others.

Jeff is totally cool because he's highly opinionated, with good reason, and can deal with any flak that comes his way. Janek is also highly opinionated and with good reason, but doesn't appear to be able to deal with flak in the same way Jeff does, I think it's much more personal for him. That's cool, we are all different. People on web forums don't often consider the effects of their words and some people can feel very hurt occasionally. But life's like that too.

I do think Jason Marsh (lovely guy and a great player) is misguided in thinking the "Janek incident" on here was some great big problem that all his musician friends need to know about. It wasn't, it was just a twat mouthing off and he got permabanned for it. Move on!

Jeff getting banned from TB sounds stupid to me. But a lot of daft talk goes on there anyway from what I've seen.

Finally, being famous should not really engender any more or less respect than any other human. But you know what people are like, notoriety and celebrity brings all sorts of feeling out in people, that's why it's an industry. Everything from sycophancy to hostility and jealousy can and will be displayed on a web forum, where the usual human boundaries can be transgressed. That can get very uncomfortable for a lot of people.

You should bear in mind too, that a pro on a forum will be often be a n00b technically and not fully aware of forum protocol, so there will be some members who may qualify as "famous" in their forum domain (like BBC) who get their arse in their hands about someone like Janek, who is "famous" in the real world, invading what they may feel is their territory. It might be a self confidence issue, who knows.

Anyway, whatever, we all have different reasons for hanging out here, I shoot the sh*t far more than discuss bass, and it's a wonderful forum to do that in. We accept eachother more because we have a shared interest, when you get famous that bond is often broken.

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1115039' date='Feb 4 2011, 10:48 AM']That 'unknown' percussionist was Trilok Gurtu from the US band Oregon. He is a genius. I recommend their cd Ecotopia.

PS My bass teacher was a PR man and he knew I was a JB fan so got me a ticket for the Royal Festival Hall in the front row right in front of Berlin. I spent the whole gig watching Trilok. A stunning musician.[/quote]

Yes that was the guy. Incredible style of percussion. I'd never seen anything like him.
I too was lucky enough to be in front row in Glasgow in front of JB and as you say Trilok Gurtu stole the show for me.

Thanks for that - I will look up the Oregon CD.

Dave

Edited February 4, 2011 by dmccombe7

[xilddx]

[quote name='Jase' post='1115218' date='Feb 4 2011, 01:19 PM']Hi silddx, thanks mate
Although I don't think I'm misguided, I have moved on I also didn't feel that I had to tell people. It came up in conversation a while ago about people screaming from behind their monitors etc. Maybe it got posted because I mentioned a UK forum, I don't know...I don't care. It was an incident that related to Jeff's topic. Storm in a tea cup mate, maybe...fact is forums are great for people spouting off pages of nothingness with misguided info. And of course bubinga5's post was genuine and innocent...I don't think bubinga5 lives under a bridge

Jase.
[i][b]Not Famous....Not hiding behind his fridge[/b][/i] [/quote]
Nice one, Jase, thanks for clearing that up man

Still enjoying your weird album BTW

[Paul_C]

[quote name='Doctor J' post='1114955' date='Feb 4 2011, 09:26 AM']Gah. I read three pages of that talkbass garbage before I simply had to stop to preserve my sanity... I just hope it didn't push something important out the other side of my brain [/quote]

[Mog]

So he got all pissy because someone slagged him off on a forum? Jesus, grow a fookin pair lad.
Everyone has an opinion, if you dont like it then tough.
Fame has nothing got to do with it, I'm sure theres plenty of players here (myself included) who have been slated in reviews and/or conversations. You put yourself out there. Expecting not to be shot at is stupid.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Mog

[ThomBassmonkey]

It's funny, there seems to be 3 ways people react to famous people.

1: They practically stalk them, seeking them out to ask questions or sucking up to them and agreeing with everything they say.
2: They flame them, they feel that because the celebrity has had respect for doing something the person doesn't like, that's absurd and they should be shot down.
3: They treat them like humans and judge them based on personal experience.

Personally, if I was famous, either of the first two would put me off. You only have to look at the threads about famous bassists and you can clearly see a lot of flaming. If I saw a thread like that about me, the only reason I'd sign up would be to tell people where to shove it. Likewise, I don't think I'd be very impressed if someone copied out my facebook status (and responses from friends) and posted it on a public forum.

Even in this thread, there's a lot of people saying they don't like Jeff. How many of you have met him? I agree, he seems arrogant about his playing and what he's written on the facebook post, but he's been around a lot of time, what he says other people think about his playing is probably true in many cases and unless you know the story of what's happened on Talkbass, can you really comment on his response? I'm sure if I was unfairly banned or banned because I responded in kind to someone that got away with it, I'd be miffed too.

No offense to the OP, but why is this thread even here? I'm surprised anyone on here feels the need to gossip about someone's private life when it's really none of the business of 99% of the members on here.

Sorry, but that ended up more ranty than I initially meant it to. I just don't understand celebrity culture. I've met a few famous people and they don't have a golden aura or any special attributes the rest of us don't have. They're just people.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1115313' date='Feb 4 2011, 02:15 PM']Even in this thread, there's a lot of people saying they don't like Jeff. How many of you have met him? I agree, he seems arrogant about his playing and what he's written on the facebook post[/quote]
In my case, you've answered your own question.

Of course he could be a delightful chap....

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1115313' date='Feb 4 2011, 02:15 PM']It's funny, there seems to be 3 ways people react to famous people.[/quote]
And there's the 4th way. Which is where some personification of inadequacy flames a famous person for [i]no other reason [/i] than to shag off down the pub and tell their numpty mates and feel like they're Charlie Big Potatoes.

Once signed up, name players are forum members and should therefore be entitled [i]at least [/i]to the same respect we show each other. It runs counter to forum ethos and everyday politeness to have a pop at them because "they put themselves up for it".

Frankly, I don't blame them for maintaining a low profile. Much respect to those who put their heads above the parapet.

Edited February 4, 2011 by skankdelvar

[Doddy]

Jeff Berlin speaks a lot of truth and sense.
Do I agree with everything he says? No,but I agree with an awful lot of it. He's one of the most accomplished players on the instrument,and is obviously very confident in his ability,and this is often seen as arrogance. I've read interviews with players who i consider a lot poorer than Berlin,who have come across as being a lot more arrogant.
I've only met him once and he was cool-he didn't come across as being full of himself at all,but he was confident in his methods.

[Rayman]

Me....I don't give a monkey's what any artist writes about themselves in any way shape or form. I judge music with my ears not with my eyes. Having seen Jeff play and speak live, I enjoyed his music and I enjoyed what he had to say on the night.

The same [i]for me[/i] goes for anyone. I don't have to know anything about them as a person, if I like the music, that's all I need to know.

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='risingson' post='1114813' date='Feb 4 2011, 01:40 AM']I loved Wayne's comment buried halfway down page 3 in this thread, completely hilarious [/quote]


Maybe a little harsh, less directed at Jeff himself than the sycophants that frequent that site.


I don't see why people who are famous shouldn't have the same thick skin everyone does, to be honest even if it is nice to have some 'big hitters' on the site unlike most bassists here they don't gig in the same situations I do therefore their advice would be less relevant to me and my playing.

[dave_bass5]

I dont like the Jeff Berlin combo, no idea about the man himself though. Are they both missing a tweeter?

[Doddy]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='1115369' date='Feb 4 2011, 02:43 PM']Maybe a little harsh, less directed at Jeff himself than the sycophants that frequent that site.[/quote]
So why did you clearly direct it at Jeff?

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='1115369' date='Feb 4 2011, 02:43 PM']I don't see why people who are famous shouldn't have the same thick skin everyone does, to be honest even if it is nice to have some 'big hitters' on the site unlike most bassists here they don't gig in the same situations I do therefore their advice would be less relevant to me and my playing.[/quote]

They can still offer good advice though. Just because these guys are doing different gigs doesn't make it any less relevant to what you are doing.In fact,I think a lot of it is relevant no matter what level you are playing at.
About the thick skinned thing-the problem is that there are some people that will constantly argue with someone no matter how many times that person explains themselves,because they are a well know player-More so than with other members.

[Bilbo]

JBs problem is that he forces people to deal with the fact that doing this music thing properly is hard, there is no quick way of getting there, only proper study. WHether you agree about metronomes or no is a minor point. His critiques of music schools who take you r money and offer little in return are legit but threaten a lot of people who are making a lot of money. He is going to raise the hackles of some. Personally, I like his candour.