Happy Jack Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Ever since I started trying to get pub gigs for my covers band, I've been struggling to understand the economics of a pub paying a band, say, £200 for a Saturday night. Not complaining about it, I just don't understand how they make a profit out of it. Clearly they do, or they wouldn't pay it, so I'm missing one or more pieces of the puzzle. If I understood how it worked, I'd be better placed to persuade reluctant landlords ... well, it's a theory, anyway. Does anyone actually know (as opposed to merely having an opinion on the subject) how this works? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commando Jack Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) While not a pub landlord, I always assumed it was based on the idea that band on a Saturday night equals more people through the door, which results in a bigger crowd that buys more drinks increasing the profit. Sometimes there is a door charge but the principle of more people = more money would remain the same. Basically, I always viewed a band as an "attraction" and, having been on both sides of the fence, would rather go to a bar with a live band than a bar without entertainment. The bar with the band will get my money and the money of like-minded individuals, while the bar with no entertainment will get sod all as no-one is in it! Edited February 6, 2011 by Commando Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthurhenry Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 It can be hard to fathom, I played a place for about 2 years where the band was paid £300. There were never more than 7 or 8 people in attendance and also a abr man, bouncers and person on the door to pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Got to be similar to Sky £800 a month. Some nights no-one in, some nights pack the pub to the rafters. You need to have the regular bands in to keep the reputation of a live music pub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gust0o Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 The bands bring people in; people drink; drink means profit. It will be different for all pubs, mind, but those were the simple economics when I managed a bar. Some will also loss-lead to build rep/penetration - £200 to play to 8 punters doesn't work, but if you can grow those numbers it soon will. Thinking back, I remember the upturn on a Sunday quiz (£50 in prizes) being £200 more in drinks, even in my little village pub! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 [quote name='arthurhenry' post='1118075' date='Feb 6 2011, 07:05 PM']It can be hard to fathom, I played a place for about 2 years where the band was paid £300. There were never more than 7 or 8 people in attendance and also a abr man, bouncers and person on the door to pay.[/quote] i did that gig too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademan_98 Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 My local pays the two of us £100 for 2 hours playing. The landlord says if we draw in 20 people, it pays for us and makes him a profit. The first gig we drew in 43 punters and he ran to pay us and re-booked. The last gig there were only 15 people in....... It's taken three months for him to contact us and ask us to play again! Punters = profit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) i know ive played pubs where no profit was made ad equally some who made a killing on the night got a list of gigs and dosh from a band recently for the coming year and one pub venue has £150 + bucket apperently the bucket usually gets 50 - 150 in it, so thats not a bad idea Edited February 6, 2011 by lojo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Happy Jack' post='1118031' date='Feb 6 2011, 06:35 PM']Ever since I started trying to get pub gigs for my covers band, I've been struggling to understand the economics of a pub paying a band, say, £200 for a Saturday night. Not complaining about it, I just don't understand how they make a profit out of it. Clearly they do, or they wouldn't pay it, so I'm missing one or more pieces of the puzzle. If I understood how it worked, I'd be better placed to persuade reluctant landlords ... well, it's a theory, anyway. Does anyone actually know (as opposed to merely having an opinion on the subject) how this works?[/quote] Both the pubs in my village have music at least one night a week, one of them (the one I sometimes play in) always draws a crowd, the other one gets a dozen people if they're lucky. Having a band in is a business expense and is tax deductable - I'm not an accountant so I can tell you how much a £200 band actually cost's the landlord, but it certainly isn't £200... Brewery managed pubs also often have an area of their P&L dedicated to "Entertainment" or "Promotions" which is also a good plunder point for pun managers who want to run a music venue... Edited February 6, 2011 by icastle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 [quote name='Blademan_98' post='1118192' date='Feb 6 2011, 08:16 PM']It's taken three months for him to contact us and ask us to play again![/quote] That's about right. If he put you on every week then the punters would get bored after a month or so - the landlord is looking for variety so the punters stay interested, pass the word on to their mates and keep coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1118216' date='Feb 6 2011, 08:29 PM']That's about right. If he put you on every week then the punters would get bored after a month or so - the landlord is looking for variety so the punters stay interested, pass the word on to their mates and keep coming.[/quote] Yes, about four times a year is not uncommon. If you can guarantee a crowd more regularly then the bookings will be more regular, in my experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 I don't normally touch pubs cause they don't pay the moolah..... but.... With my Disco covers band we approached 8 music pubs with a view to play at each venue every 3 months. We charged £175 min for the first gig but then it increases from there. We make sure that the 3 months before we play, we advertise the gig heavily and get the punters to get involved....'Theme night' almost if you will. We always get re-booked and we keep raising the money ;o) As long as you help pull the punters in you'll have no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1118195' date='Feb 6 2011, 08:16 PM']Having a band in is a business expense and is tax deductable - I'm not an accountant so I can tell you how much a £200 band actually cost's the landlord, but it certainly isn't £200... [/quote] A lot of pubs used to(they still might) get an entertainment budget from the brewery as well,so that brings it down even further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 This equation is my rough template Pay £200 for a band and the venue needs to take upwards of £600. I don't actually know what a £600 take looks like in terms of people, but a good night round here gets £2-3000 over the bar and £6000 is VERY good. 20 people spending £10 isn't going to do much but breweries can set aside an allowance and one of the local ones used to..and may still do... pay for the whole set of gigs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endorka Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 [quote name='JTUK' post='1118608' date='Feb 7 2011, 09:00 AM']This equation is my rough template Pay £200 for a band and the venue needs to take upwards of £600.[/quote] My experience around Glasgow is similar. Obviously there are local and regional variations, but the city centre venues would like to make around four or five times the amount they are paying the band. Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 The economics is quite simple. I was a bar manager for 3 years and I currently live in my mates pub which does live music: 1) If there's a band playing people arrive earlier and leave later = more drinks per head 2) If there's a band playing, people tend to come in bigger groups which equals more 'rounds'. At the end of the night, 3 or 4 people from the same group get a round in because they lose track or want to show off or because they want to be a nice guy, and most of the time leave without even finishing their drinks. A smaller group tends not to get extra drinks in at the end of the night. 3) If there's a *good* band in, they'll bring "roadies" with them. They don't get free drinks like the band do, and they'll be there from 7pm til 2am. 4) If there's a band playing, you can get away with people hanging around the pub after hours talking to the band, landlord etc and again because there's more groups of people rather than individuals, they'll stay later and get more drinks in. 5) If there's a band playing, you'd be wise to advertise or promote drinks that take less time to prepare. Eg, alcopops and bottled beers and ciders. Less time serving = more people drinking at once, and more profit because of less wastage from beers and wines and you'll have people getting more rounds in as it takes less time to drink a bottle of bud than it does a pint of stella. Less time for the bar staff to be worrying about glass wash too = more time serving = faster drink turnover. In my experiences, that's pretty much it really! Truckstop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthurhenry Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 [quote name='Truckstop' post='1118636' date='Feb 7 2011, 09:39 AM']The economics is quite simple. I was a bar manager for 3 years and I currently live in my mates pub which does live music: 1) If there's a band playing people arrive earlier and leave later = more drinks per head 2) If there's a band playing, people tend to come in bigger groups which equals more 'rounds'. At the end of the night, 3 or 4 people from the same group get a round in because they lose track or want to show off or because they want to be a nice guy, and most of the time leave without even finishing their drinks. A smaller group tends not to get extra drinks in at the end of the night. 3) If there's a *good* band in, they'll bring "roadies" with them. They don't get free drinks like the band do, and they'll be there from 7pm til 2am. 4) If there's a band playing, you can get away with people hanging around the pub after hours talking to the band, landlord etc and again because there's more groups of people rather than individuals, they'll stay later and get more drinks in. 5) If there's a band playing, you'd be wise to advertise or promote drinks that take less time to prepare. Eg, alcopops and bottled beers and ciders. Less time serving = more people drinking at once, and more profit because of less wastage from beers and wines and you'll have people getting more rounds in as it takes less time to drink a bottle of bud than it does a pint of stella. Less time for the bar staff to be worrying about glass wash too = more time serving = faster drink turnover. In my experiences, that's pretty much it really! Truckstop[/quote] "Free drinks" What's that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Whenever I've played a gig, the landlord buys a few rounds for the band or there's at least a couple bottles of beer each. I'd never play a pub gig without free drinks. In fact, I'd kick up a fuss if they didnt offer free drinks for the band. The way I've always seen it, is that the band is doing the venue a favour. Not the other way round. Even when I ran a bar, I'd always ensure the band got a rider. If they're a good band with a good following, I'd want them to come back! Truckstop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynepunkdude Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 [quote name='BottomE' post='1118188' date='Feb 6 2011, 08:13 PM']i did that gig too[/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthurhenry Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 [quote name='Truckstop' post='1118665' date='Feb 7 2011, 10:23 AM']Whenever I've played a gig, the landlord buys a few rounds for the band or there's at least a couple bottles of beer each. I'd never play a pub gig without free drinks. In fact, I'd kick up a fuss if they didnt offer free drinks for the band. The way I've always seen it, is that the band is doing the venue a favour. Not the other way round. Even when I ran a bar, I'd always ensure the band got a rider. If they're a good band with a good following, I'd want them to come back! Truckstop[/quote] Wow! In over 800 gigs, I reckon I've had about 30 free drinks- seriously. I've found that musicians are nearly always last on the list for any kind of respectful treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 I guess the maths are along the lines of: £200 = 20 people spending £10 each or so at the bar / ordering food / eating pork scratchings, etc. So landlords/ladies must assume that a band brings in at least 20 new punters who might not otherwise be there on a Saturday night in order to break even. Plus, there's some psychology behind people drinking more in loud/noisy environments (I guess because it's more difficult to hold a conversation). So spending at the bar would probably be up among the regular punters as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Free drinks..?? it is nice to be offered them but we drive to the venue anyway so not a deal breaker. For me, gigs are a two way street..we want to play and get paid, they want us to play and bring business in. It seems to me from this conversation things are quite healthy round here in comparison but it is still down from the days of yore.. IIRC..the starter money of £200 now is almost the same as we were getting 20 years ago. That would have been top whack then though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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