Minor seventh chords

[iconic]

I have been going thru Ed Freidlands method books and come across something that's puzzled me.

Major sevenths are simply the 7th added to the chord so 1-3-5-7

Dominant seventh adds a flat 7th so 1-3-5-b7 OK so far....then

Minor sevenths are built 1-b3-5-b7 according to Ed.

But a flat 3rd on a minor scale makes it just a normal minor 2nd doesn't it, so why say flat 3rd?

maybe I got scales 'n chords messed up or something?

I didn't get a lot of sleep eitherlast night!

[Bilbo]

A flat third is in no way a second, You can flatten a second (a flattened ninth) but they are pretty much never sharpened (although you do get sharpened ninths). A flattened third is what defines all minor chords. Most music could not exist without this little sucker. I think you may have some misunderstandings about scale/chord theory.

[fatback]

I think I see where the confusion is.

The change in the note (flat, augmented, whatever) is always thought of in relation to the major scale. So it's a flat third 'compared to the major'.

What you were thinking is quite logical, but the wrong end of the stick.

Edited February 7, 2011 by fatback

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='iconic' post='1118610' date='Feb 7 2011, 09:08 AM']I have been going thru Ed Freidlands method books and come across something that's puzzled me.

Major sevenths are simply the 7th added to the chord so 1-3-5-7

Dominant seventh adds a flat 7th so 1-3-5-b7 OK so far....then

Minor sevenths are built 1-b3-5-b7 according to Ed.

But a flat 3rd on a minor scale makes it just a normal minor 2nd doesn't it, so why say flat 3rd?

maybe I got scales 'n chords messed up or something?

I didn't get a lot of sleep eitherlast night![/quote]
Are you mixing up the ordinary flat third of a minor scale (e.g. Eb in a C minor scale) with a further flattened minor third which would in fact be (and be called) a second?

Edited February 7, 2011 by EssentialTension

[Doddy]

I think where the confusion lies,is that the book is referring to the chord via the major scale,where as you are comparing it to the minor.

If we take it from the major scale-C,D,E,F,G,A,B,-then it's easy to explain the difference in the chord tones by flattening one note at a time (B to make a dominant 7 and B and E for a minor 7)

It sounds like you are referring to the minor scale,in which case we have
C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,Bb. So to make a C minor 7 chord you just use the already occurring 1-3-5-7.
However,if you flatten the third now you end up with a D, which is a major second,not a minor second like you suggest.

The reason the book,and most people say flat 3rd is because it is referring to the interval from a basis of the major chord.

[jakenewmanbass]

arrghh too much half information can be deadly...

A flat 3 simply details the relationship between root and 3rd, avoid the temptation to compare with anything else because as you see you will get lost.
b3 is simply a minor third up from the root eg in C the min third is Eb, the comparison only comes when talking about the major 3rd which would be E.
the best way to always be sure in things like this is to relate to absolute points... the obvious being the root. relate everything to that and you are on a surer footing.

Doddy got in (accurately) while I was typing :0)

Edited February 7, 2011 by jakesbass

[iconic]

thanks guys, I was thinking he was refering to a minor chord....Stuart's book is so much better than Ed's

cheers for he help

[Joe Hubbard Bass]

The first step to understanding harmony is understanding intervals and how to construct them. I've just put up a free download lesson on Understanding Intervals that will come in useful:

[url="http://www.joehubbardbass.com/cool-free-bass-stuff/"]http://www.joehubbardbass.com/cool-free-bass-stuff/[/url]

Enjoy

Joe

[iconic]

[quote name='Joe Hubbard Bass' post='1120005' date='Feb 8 2011, 12:51 PM']The first step to understanding harmony is understanding intervals and how to construct them. I've just put up a free download lesson on Understanding Intervals that will come in useful:

[url="http://www.joehubbardbass.com/cool-free-bass-stuff/"]http://www.joehubbardbass.com/cool-free-bass-stuff/[/url]

Enjoy

Joe[/quote]

thanks for the link

[Joe Hubbard Bass]

[quote name='iconic' post='1122350' date='Feb 10 2011, 09:26 AM']thanks for the link[/quote]

My pleasure.

Best- Joe