baboom Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I'm not in any shape or strength condition for DB yet it would seem ... On Tuesday after a 5-10 mins DB practice I got a slight sharp pain and then saw I'd managed to develop a bump on top of my left wrist that (after extensive googling) appears likely to be fluid buildup following tendon strain. I managed EB for 3 hours the next day (regular band practice) and a bit of turn on the mandolin at an acoustic night without much bother at all, but am thinking I should give the DB a rest for a day or two? Has anyone got any tips for getting into condition here? I might have been keeping my elbow out to the side quite a bit (arm horizontal and parallel to floor) - way more than Rufus Reid does (just got his DB DVD and book, his arm is vertical and parallel to neck more or less - i.e. the forearm is a normal vector to the fretboard) - I'm now thinking that keeping the elbow closer to my side and wrist straight like Rufus would mean my arm weight is more naturally pulling down on the strings and I can grip less? I know this sort of thing is best dealt with in person by teachers but I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts before my next visit.... Cheers T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I am watching this aspect of playing the double bass very carefully. My thoughts (and I would be loathe to take this as expert advice) are that the important thing is to keep the wrist straight (which requires you to keep the arm. elbow up) and, over time, develop the grace (not strength) within your hand to make sure it is working as efficiently as possible. My action is a little tougher than other basses I have played but, as I have progressed, I have found that it is not that I was too weak to play it properly but that the muscles in my left hand were not yet working together to get the most secure fretting of the note, particularly at speed. As I have practiced and progressed, my left hand is gradually getting more relaxed and more able to execute ideas without 'collapsing' into a claw shape (as it did early on). I particularly find it important to ensure that the thumb continues to work as a pivot and that the left hand doesn't 'grab' the neck. This grabbing is, if I am reading the symptoms correctly, a consequence of fatigue which is reducing as I play more and improve the efficiency of my left hand. I have, however, pulled a muscle in my upper arm and am having to manage that as I practice. am a great believer in the benefits of the Alexander Technique and am learning to listen to my body as it finds its way. My biggest challenge at the moment, however, is trying to play without gritting my teeth!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 [quote name='baboom' post='1122543' date='Feb 10 2011, 01:01 PM']I'm not in any shape or strength condition for DB yet it would seem ... On Tuesday after a 5-10 mins DB practice I got a slight sharp pain and then saw I'd managed to develop a bump on top of my left wrist that (after extensive googling) appears likely to be fluid buildup following tendon strain. I managed EB for 3 hours the next day (regular band practice) and a bit of turn on the mandolin at an acoustic night without much bother at all, but am thinking I should give the DB a rest for a day or two? Has anyone got any tips for getting into condition here? I might have been keeping my elbow out to the side quite a bit (arm horizontal and parallel to floor) - way more than Rufus Reid does (just got his DB DVD and book, his arm is vertical and parallel to neck more or less - i.e. the forearm is a normal vector to the fretboard) - I'm now thinking that keeping the elbow closer to my side and wrist straight like Rufus would mean my arm weight is more naturally pulling down on the strings and I can grip less? I know this sort of thing is best dealt with in person by teachers but I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts before my next visit.... Cheers T[/quote] I think I had the same thing last month. Much rehearsal and gigging, got pain in my plucking fingers and a lump on the top of my hand. I rested it for a few days and it went, hasn't reoccured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slobluesine Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 time to get one of these.... [url="http://www.powerballs.com/"]http://www.powerballs.com/[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshJ Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 [quote name='slobluesine' post='1122754' date='Feb 10 2011, 03:36 PM']time to get one of these.... [url="http://www.powerballs.com/"]http://www.powerballs.com/[/url][/quote] +1 for powerballs. I've never had any lessons or anything so my technique is awful, and I only really play slap.. but after a week of (almost constant) powerballing I could play much faster and didn't get tired anywhere near as quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Burrito Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I too swear by Powerball. It's an essential part of my toolkit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Hughes Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Yep - the Powerball is a great tool for getting the blood flowing to all the parts you need. (Steady on lads, I'm talking double bass here ) As Bilbo suggested - keeping your wrist straight, no matter where your hand is on the neck, is very important in delivering the correct pressure from your shoulder right down to your fingertips. I used to hold/position my bass in all sorts of different ways, trying to get comfortable - mostly based on pictures of other players. Then I finally settled on using the straight wrist to determine where my bass should stand. As a result, for me to maintain a straight wrist throughout the length of the neck, I have to position the tuning pegs way behind my head, so that I can't actually see the first few notes I'm fingering. I also find that I lean into the bass a lot more than I used to. One thing to consider is your body size and shape. I used to go crazy trying to emulate stances from folks like Ron Carter or Rufus Reid - and then I realised: Ron Carter is over 6 foot tall, with arms and fingers to match. I'm 5ft 9, with short arms and stubby fingers to match (No Middle Earth jokes) - so there's no wayI'm going to hold my 3/4 size bass comfortably in the same fashion that Ron holds his 3/4 size bass. Food for thought. And remember- IF IT HURTS, STOP!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 As someone else said on here - no pain, no pain. That is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leroybasslines Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Gareth Hughes' post='1123097' date='Feb 10 2011, 07:45 PM']And remember- IF IT HURTS, STOP!!!!!!!![/quote] Amen to that! If you play with an injury, just like a sportsman you'll end up doing more damage and hampering a recovery. Playing DB has increased my strength and stamina when playing EB a huge amount, but I have overdone it in the past and even though I thought I should play through that (remember the blisters when you started playing as a kid?!) it ended up being counter-productive because I couldn't play at all for a while afterwards. I broke my wrist a number of years ago and a lifetime of football goalkeeping has had its effect on my hands so I have to be careful; it doesn't prevent me from playing at all but I need to be careful and listen to my body about when to have a day off! I like the look of those powerballs guys! How do they work exactly? How do you feel they help? It might be worth seeing a physio - there are some that have a very good knowledge of musicians and their many stresses and strains. I just googled 'physiotherapy for musicians' and got this page which might be a start: [url="http://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/health.html"]http://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/health.html[/url] (I notice you're in Edinburgh and some of the links are specific to Scotland. Check them out!). Edited February 11, 2011 by leroybasslines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) For me the word grip and fingering don't go together, if you are gripping the neck you are maximising the inefficiency of the movement in your fingers, making it more likely that strain will occur, your left hand should be relaxed and loose feeling with all the pressure being efficiently centred in your fingertips by having a straight wrist and using the natural gravitational effect (however slight due to the plane) that resides in your left arm. There is more detail on this subject [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=67545&st=20"]here[/url] where a few people have discussed this subject and I have included some pictures. My final thought on this is clear, and I've said it many times. GET A TEACHER. Even if it's just for a few tips. The external view and constant prompting to maintain good habits that lessons 'should' give you are invaluable at the early stage. Despite it's popularity on these pages I see the relative value of powerballs as minimal. You are exercising the muscles in very specific ways when playing DB a powerball may well help general muscle strength in the area but I'm yet to be convinced that this is of any real benefit to conditioning the same muscles to execute an entirely different set of actions. (I may be wrong of course) Edited February 11, 2011 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Hughes Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 +1 for getting a teacher. I'm taking lessons after playing upright for about 12 years and I'm wishing I had taken them 12 years ago. Bad habits can be un-learned tho, so there is hope The powerballs are a mini gyroscope - there is a smaller weighted ball inside the ball you are holding which moves in the opposite direction from the way you move the ball. Ever see those giant contraptions that astronauts use for training, where they spin them around inside a huge circular frame? With the powerball, the more force you use to move it, the stringer the resistance. It's resistance training , basically. I was a little skeptical of them too. A friend of mine bought one for me after listening to my complaints about playing upright. Gave it to me before a gig. Using it for five minutes before doing the gig felt like I had been warming up on the upright for the last half hour. So for me, I was able to hit the ground running and have my hands feel in peak performance. I was a converted skeptic after that. I'm sure they don't exercise the exact muscles we use for upright - they were developed for computer users with RSI - but they exercise enough of the muscles I use to make it a sound investment. Also have a very busy keyboard player friend swear by them too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='Gareth Hughes' post='1123097' date='Feb 10 2011, 07:45 PM']Ron Carter is over 6 foot tall,[/quote] 6' 4'' to be exact - it amused me that the bass player that replaced 'Big Paul' is Miles' band was 'even bigger Ron'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBus Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) In his [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Todd-Phillips-Essential-Techniques-Acoustic/dp/B00024OR4Y/ref=sr_1_3?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1297423565&sr=1-3"]Essential Techniques For Acoustic Bass[/url] DVD, Todd Phillips recomends, as an exercise, trying to finger the notes without the thumb pressing on the back of the neck. This is to help build a technique where you are not dependent on the hand grabbing the neck. I have argued the point of keeping your elbow up with Jake before. My elbow sits relatively low but my wrist is still straight. I guess I have the bass tilted back slightly to allow this. I used to keep my arm up but that led to shoulder problems. With my arm down now there are no problems whatsoever. You just have to experiment to find the way that suits you. And yes get a teacher, says he who hasn't done that. Edited February 11, 2011 by BassBus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) [quote name='BassBus' post='1123700' date='Feb 11 2011, 11:36 AM']. I have argued the point of keeping your elbow up with Jake before. My elbow sits relatively low but my wrist is still straight. I guess I have the bass tilted back slightly to allow this. I used to keep my arm up but that led to shoulder problems. With my arm down now there are no problems whatsoever. You just have to experiment to find the way that suits you. And yes get a teacher, says he who hasn't done that. [/quote] To be fair BB if you are referring to playing the EUB in your pic then the angle at which you have the neck would not be achievable on DB whilst standing, and therefore your arm position will be much more like that of a seated DB player, I' saying this because I felt that our previous conversation was quite successfully agreed at different physiology etc you are (in your pic) keeping your wrist straight with your elbow low but that is only because you are playing an EUB on a stand. The same would be near impossible with a standing DB edit. I have also never advocated keeping the elbow uncomfortably high, only enough to maintain a straight wrist. Edited February 11, 2011 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBus Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Maybe I have misunderstood you Jake. I was merely refering to our previous discussion on this matter. Perhaps 'argued' was the wrong word. I do manage to achieve a straight wrist on the DB too without having the elbow too high and use a similar position on the EUB, or as close as possible. I think we agreed before about finding a playing position that suits the individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='BassBus' post='1124403' date='Feb 11 2011, 09:43 PM']Maybe I have misunderstood you Jake. I was merely refering to our previous discussion on this matter. Perhaps 'argued' was the wrong word. I do manage to achieve a straight wrist on the DB too without having the elbow too high and use a similar position on the EUB, or as close as possible. I think we agreed before about finding a playing position that suits the individual.[/quote] No probs BB just trying to be nice and clear for the OP, I've had a few DB teachers and they have all advocated the straight wrist thing, but yes we agree on suiting the player. I still would suggest that having a teacher (ie external view) is the best course of action, and I'm very keen to help people avoid the sort of problem that is being mentioned here, as I have come across quite a few players over the years that have had injury prevent them from playing at all, and in some cases I'm talking about a loss of living for years at a time so I know you'd agree this is not to be taken lightly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baboom Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 thanks for the replies - great to know that this is not a totally surprising place to be when learning the DB (albeit not a good one!) The lump disappeared pretty quick but I will be keeping an eye on the area and see how things go. I'll be off to get another lesson fairly shortly me thinks, esp to check this over :-) I'm 6'3" as it happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mybass Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 [quote name='baboom' post='1122543' date='Feb 10 2011, 01:01 PM']I'm not in any shape or strength condition for DB yet it would seem ... On Tuesday after a 5-10 mins DB practice I got a slight sharp pain and then saw I'd managed to develop a bump on top of my left wrist that (after extensive googling) appears likely to be fluid buildup following tendon strain. I managed EB for 3 hours the next day (regular band practice) and a bit of turn on the mandolin at an acoustic night without much bother at all, but am thinking I should give the DB a rest for a day or two? Has anyone got any tips for getting into condition here? I might have been keeping my elbow out to the side quite a bit (arm horizontal and parallel to floor) - way more than Rufus Reid does (just got his DB DVD and book, his arm is vertical and parallel to neck more or less - i.e. the forearm is a normal vector to the fretboard) - I'm now thinking that keeping the elbow closer to my side and wrist straight like Rufus would mean my arm weight is more naturally pulling down on the strings and I can grip less? I know this sort of thing is best dealt with in person by teachers but I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts before my next visit.... Cheers T[/quote] Go with Rufus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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