Nut material

[Vibrating G String]

In my very unscientific experience I've found I like similar materials to the fret, brass nuts on fretted, and ebony or some other wood on fretless. It seems this gives a more even tone between open and fretted notes. Or at least it looks like it would.

I've done a few aluminum nuts with good results. They sound like brass but with a lightly childish impudence above the 2k frequencies and a chocolaty low end filled with rainbows.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='1127974' date='Feb 15 2011, 12:59 AM']Nickel? Afterall, it's what the frets (most anyway) are made from?[/quote]
Mostly copper and zinc, which make brass. Nickel is usually less than either copper or zinc in the mix.

[henry norton]

I wouldn't concern yourself too much about the minor differences between one nut material and another - allot of it is marketing bulls##t. You might pay near enough a tenner for a Tusq nut whereas a Corian blank will cost 99p. I can't tell the difference and I do it for a living! What you should concern yourself with is getting it fitted properly. Spending an extra few quid on a proper fitting will benefit you much more than spending a few extra quid on a fancy nut.

[The Bass Doc]

I've just returned from the workshop after a little experiment.

Had a neck with no nut fitted yet - played the thing 'as is' with the strings obviously resting on the first fret - sounded OK.

Pushed a ready cut bone nut into place - sounded OK as above.

Removed the nut and replaced it with a piece of folded cloth simply to clear the first fret - sounded duff on open strings but just the same as above on fretted notes.

Kind of adds weight to the view that, other than open strings, the material of the nut matters not.

[chris_b]

[quote name='chilievans' post='1127663' date='Feb 14 2011, 09:25 PM']....I've been having vibration issues coming from my bass which seems to be due too the cut in the nut
Anyway I've finally decided to get a new one fitted but which is the best type of nut to have? Bone, brass plastic etc
Does it really make that much differance anyway?....[/quote]
I assume it's the Ibanez you're having trouble with?

I have no specialised knowledge here but as the nut forms part of the vibration path and as the quality of the sound on a musical instrument come from the quality of the vibration I'd get the best nut I could. My Lakland uses bone and the Skylines use Delrin which I assume is a high grade plastic.

According to the specs on his site John Shuker used either brass or Corian on your J bass. I'd guess we can trust Shuker to use top quality components and it must be easy to tell which one your bass has so I'd get the same for the other bass.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Stuee' post='1127884' date='Feb 15 2011, 02:01 AM']Fascinating discussion. No disrespect guys, but I'd love to hear someone who actually [i]knows[/i] how it works explain the physics.

While we're getting down to it, though, presumably the tuning posts (specifically their sound transmission properties) are as important as the bridge, but I cannot recall any discussion or marketing gumph ever mentioning them with respect to sound.[/quote]
They may carry a small amount of influence (perhaps that's why most strings are tipped with silk - to dampen any sympathetic response) but I theorise (no proof folks just opinion ) that after the string has past the nut and gone through a break angle it no longer carries sufficient influence on the main part of the string and what little that could be transfered to the pickup while the main part of the string is vibrating is so minute as to be negligible.
You can of course cause the headstock section of strings to vibrate "prrring" which will then in turn set off a slight harmonic response on the main length of the strings but only if they are not played at the same time.



[quote name='Grand Wazoo' post='1127917' date='Feb 15 2011, 07:50 AM']I've found this from Premier Guitar Website

One of the smallest parts of a guitar is also the most discussed one - the nut.......[/quote]
Thanks GW that pretty much echoes my experience too - albeit with a limited number of materials to experiment with.
I think it's worth pointing out that when I put a brass nut on a guitar the difference was far more marked than the change on a bass - then again as we're dealing with higher frequencies (and the nut only seems to have influence the top end of the spectrum) that is only to be expected.

[Stuee]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='1128345' date='Feb 15 2011, 01:48 PM']They may carry a small amount of influence (perhaps that's why most strings are tipped with silk - to dampen any sympathetic response) but I theorise (no proof folks just opinion ) that after the string has past the nut and gone through a break angle it no longer carries sufficient influence on the main part of the string and what little that could be transfered to the pickup while the main part of the string is vibrating is so minute as to be negligible.
You can of course cause the headstock section of strings to vibrate "prrring" which will then in turn set off a slight harmonic response on the main length of the strings but only if they are not played at the same time.[/quote]
I agree, but my point was that the same is true at the other end. Once the string has passed over the saddle there is very little vibrational energy left in it, yet there is very little argument as to the importance and effectiveness of a good, solid bridge. And then there's the old string-through body/bridge debate.

I always thought the silk wrap was to offer more grip & some protection to the tuners.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Stuee

[Fat Rich]

My old Status Series 1 basses have a string guide and a zero fret, it sounds exactly like a fretted note on the fingerboard. For the fretless one the finger board slopes away where the nut would normally be so that the string sits on the end of the fingerboard and I actually get some mwwarr from open strings.

Only downside on a headed bass is that it's going to wear more as the strings are dragged over it as you tune the bass. Not a problem for headless basses as the string is fixed near the zero fret and moves at the bridge end.

[chilievans]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1128133' date='Feb 15 2011, 11:18 AM']I assume it's the Ibanez you're having trouble with?

I have no specialised knowledge here but as the nut forms part of the vibration path and as the quality of the sound on a musical instrument come from the quality of the vibration I'd get the best nut I could. My Lakland uses bone and the Skylines use Delrin which I assume is a high grade plastic.

According to the specs on his site John Shuker used either brass or Corian on your J bass. I'd guess we can trust Shuker to use top quality components and it must be easy to tell which one your bass has so I'd get the same for the other bass.[/quote]
Surprisingly its my Shuker that's giving me the problem. When I play an open e or a I get a vibrating noise coming from the bass. The vibrating goes when I apply pressure behind the nut and play the same note. I've stopped the noise by placing some tin foil in the nut slots.

[Doddy]

[quote name='chilievans' post='1128807' date='Feb 15 2011, 07:59 PM']Surprisingly its my Shuker that's giving me the problem. When I play an open e or a I get a vibrating noise coming from the bass. The vibrating goes when I apply pressure behind the nut and play the same note. I've stopped the noise by placing some tin foil in the nut slots.[/quote]

Sounds like you need a sharper break angle over the nut-the slots could be a bit too low.

[chilievans]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1128814' date='Feb 15 2011, 08:03 PM']Sounds like you need a sharper break angle over the nut-the slots could be a bit too low.[/quote]
I've tried new strings and winding them as far down the tuning pegs as I can but no joy

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='chilievans' post='1128836' date='Feb 15 2011, 08:14 PM']I've tried new strings and winding them as far down the tuning pegs as I can but no joy[/quote]
Have you told Jon about it? I'm sure he'd want it fixed as much as you.

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='silddx' post='1127696' date='Feb 14 2011, 09:53 PM']Really? I find that amazing.

Personally, I think it's all bollocks and the nut should be made of a material similar to the frets. Brass is probably best. I find it hard to understand why most basses don't have zero frets. it makes perfect sense, Patrice Vigier has the right idea. He also believes through necks are a bit stupid. He's right I think.[/quote]
Yes, zero frets are excellent, and are also fitted to the vast majority of headless instruments...
However, I don't think us owners of s1, s2 and s3 Vigiers are going to burn them and buy s4s. I'd wager that the transition to bolt-on was driven by economic / production factors. Allegedly, bolt-ons are "better" for slap. Warwick said it, so that must be true, too.

[chilievans]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='1128844' date='Feb 15 2011, 08:18 PM']Have you told Jon about it? I'm sure he'd want it fixed as much as you.[/quote]
I spoke to Jon earlier and he said he'd sort it out for free but the cost of posting it up to him from south Wales isn't worth it bud. I can get it done locally for £25 as opposed to £30+ each way for posting

Thanks to everyone for the great response.
Every time I log in I learn something new

[LukewarmWater]

Back when I used to live in Bristol I remember talking to Eltham Jones about this, and sure enough he's got a bit on his website:

[url="http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/rout_serv/nut_geom.htm"]http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/rout_serv/nut_geom.htm[/url]

I can't offer any critique of his explanation since the physics I did was in a completely unrelated field (and long enough ago) to be useless here

[Bilbo]

When you add in the player, the strings, the wood, the room, the pickups, the on board eq, the amp, the effects, the speaker efficiency, the other instruments, the cymbals (especially the cymbals), the phases of the moon and the Lord of the Rings, I would see the material of the nut to be less relevant than cabbage.

[xilddx]

[quote name='The Bass Doc' post='1128082' date='Feb 15 2011, 10:36 AM']I've just returned from the workshop after a little experiment.

Had a neck with no nut fitted yet - played the thing 'as is' with the strings obviously resting on the first fret - sounded OK.

Pushed a ready cut bone nut into place - sounded OK as above.

Removed the nut and replaced it with a piece of folded cloth simply to clear the first fret - sounded duff on open strings but just the same as above on fretted notes.

Kind of adds weight to the view that, other than open strings, the material of the nut matters not.[/quote]
Good work doctor!

I always thought that would be the case.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1129769' date='Feb 16 2011, 03:26 PM']When you add in the player, the strings, the wood, the room, the pickups, the on board eq, the amp, the effects, the speaker efficiency, the other instruments, the cymbals (especially the cymbals), the phases of the moon and the Lord of the Rings, I would see the material of the nut to be [b]less relevant than cabbage.[/b][/quote]

.. and specially selected tone woods

[The Bass Doc]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1129769' date='Feb 16 2011, 03:26 PM']I would see the material of the nut to be less relevant than cabbage.[/quote]

Right that's me off to the workshop to try some cabbage in the nut slot. I think a fair test would be to compare it with a piece of celery.

[Bilbo]

CELERYYYYYYYYYYYY, CALL ON ME, CALL ON MEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, CELERY!!!

[xilddx]

[quote name='The Bass Doc' post='1129831' date='Feb 16 2011, 04:13 PM']Right that's me off to the workshop to try some cabbage in the nut slot. I think a fair test would be to compare it with a piece of celery.[/quote]
Would you kindly also note the tonal differences between the white, green, red and savoy varieties, please. Is curly kale an option? I've heard the heart is not as sturdy as the others, but it has a higher iron content.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='silddx' post='1129853' date='Feb 16 2011, 04:29 PM']Would you kindly also note the tonal differences between the white, green, red and savoy varieties, please. Is curly kale an option? I've heard the heart is not as sturdy as the others, but it has a higher iron content.[/quote]

Now you're being silly.

[The Bass Doc]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1129855' date='Feb 16 2011, 04:31 PM']Now you're being silly.[/quote]

Silly? You want silly?

Results so far:-

Raw carrot seems ideal for out and out rock sounds
Broccoli - gives you the kind of twang suited to James Bond themes etc.
Peas - OK if you only use the garden variety - the others make the sound a bit, well, processed.
Beetroot - ideal for simple 60s stuff.
Green onions - for the Duck Dunn tone.
Swede - great when used with an EBS backline.
Butter beans - makes the bass play like.....very smooth.
Iceberg lettuce - very cool and well suited to jazz........bit like Bilbo himself.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1129769' date='Feb 16 2011, 03:26 PM']....When you add in the player, the strings, the wood, the room, the pickups, the on board eq, the amp, the effects, the speaker efficiency, the other instruments, the cymbals (especially the cymbals), the phases of the moon and the Lord of the Rings, I would see the material of the nut to be less relevant than cabbage....[/quote]
I think you've lost sight of the fact that the OP had a problem and he was asking advice about a fix for that problem. His problem won't be resolved by any of us discussing modes, syncopation or what ever part of music theory you deem to be of importance, or even cabbage.

[xilddx]

[quote name='The Bass Doc' post='1129864' date='Feb 16 2011, 04:44 PM']Silly? You want silly?

Results so far:-

Raw carrot seems ideal for out and out rock sounds
Broccoli - gives you the kind of twang suited to James Bond themes etc.
Peas - OK if you only use the garden variety - the others make the sound a bit, well, processed.
Beetroot - ideal for simple 60s stuff.
Green onions - for the Duck Dunn tone.
Swede - great when used with an EBS backline.
Butter beans - makes the bass play like.....very smooth.
Iceberg lettuce - very cool and well suited to jazz........bit like Bilbo himself.[/quote]


Actually, one thing I didn't know until very recently is that one of Corian's constituents is calcified puy lentil.