Fatigue & Stamina

[Bilbo]

I am a 14 months into the double bass and have done gigs where I have played two sets without any problems and others where I have to go to the Wal after one. I am still finding that my levels of stamina for playing double bass are inconsistent. I also find that the volume of the band impacts upon my technique to the detriment of the longevity of my effectiveness. I assume this will rectify itself as I play more and more but wondered if there were any stories out there?

[Beedster]

Know what you mean Bilbo. The main factor I've identified is getting the levels right on stage. If I don't, I often have to dig in to hear myself, and by doing so I cross the tipping point from mild finger discomfort and slight tiredness at the end of the gig, to serious muscle fatigue and decreased playing ability during it. My bass sounds best played at low-moderate intensity, so if I have to lift it too much, I lose on tone also. I'm moving to DIing to front of house now, I've had had too much trouble getting the balance between being able to hear my on-stage amplification and not causing feedback reminiscent of large-scale earth-moving machinery in action.

C

[TPJ]

+1 to both comments. Stage volume needs to be right so we don't over play. It's awful when you start feeling that fatigue set in during a gig or session.

I also find it hard in all acoustic environments and really need to concentrate on playing loud enough to be heard but not too hard so the bass chokes. I've been finding different right hand techniques to "draw" (for lack of a better word) sound out of the bass in acoustic sessions, kind of a zen approach I guess, that give max volume and tone with less effort. Makes you wonder how the Browns, Mingus', Carter played all those long gigs for all those years.

Edited February 17, 2011 by TPJ

[Bilbo]

In the era when these guys were at the height of their powers, most jazz clubs in the US used to book acts for anythin up to 6 weeks at a time. I have no doubt that 4 sets a night 7 nights a week is going to give you stamina (or kill you )

[Doddy]

I find that I tire quicker if I've either not been playing it enough,or more often than not because I'm having trouble
hearing myself. If I'm struggling to hear what I'm doing,I naturally start to play harder,and I tire out a lot quicker. I'm the same with electric bass,but it's not as obvious.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1131083' date='Feb 17 2011, 02:42 PM']I find that I tire quicker if I've either not been playing it enough,or more often than not because I'm having trouble
hearing myself. If I'm struggling to hear what I'm doing,I naturally start to play harder,and I tire out a lot quicker. I'm the same with electric bass,but it's not as obvious.[/quote]

Is the problem about monitoring or other players being too loud?

I did a gig in December in which my bass sounded great and the drummer, Alex Best from Ipswich, was sensitive to the situation and played Jimmy Cobb not Elvin Jones. The consequence was a solid swinging performance of two hours worth of jazz standards. Other gigs I have done with louder room noise have resulted in me struggling and losing momentun much earlier on. But I am not sure if I just need to turn up (risking feedback) or add some form of additional monitoring.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1131111' date='Feb 17 2011, 02:56 PM']Is the problem about monitoring or other players being too loud?[/quote]

Normally,monitoring is the problem. Even if the other guys are too loud,as long as I have decent monitoring it's not a problem. Even if I'm just using my amp,as long as I can hear it clearly things are fine as I can play lighter.

[bassace]

Certainly when you are happy with your amplified sound it gets a lot easier. If you can relax it gets easier too. My Kindle has just turned up 'An Alexander Technique Approach to Double Bass Technique' (not exactly a catchy title) by Ethan Kind. I haven't read it yet but it may be helpful.

[slobluesine]

lots of related tips here folks...

[url="http://www.doublebasschat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9859"]http://www.doublebasschat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9859[/url]

[Bilbo]

[quote name='slobluesine' post='1131349' date='Feb 17 2011, 06:07 PM']lots of related tips here folks...

[url="http://www.doublebasschat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9859"]http://www.doublebasschat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9859[/url][/quote]

Some helpful stuff in there (some less so !!). Many thanks.

[slobluesine]

yup forget all the lessons, just get hold of some Ibuprofen, skunk, and a few banana's.... sorted

oh yeah, little bit of water to wash it all down

[derrenleepoole]

I've been getting cramp in my left arm since playing upright again. I know my technique is okay, as I remember most of my lessons from my teacher, even though they are a long while back. But I'm just so out of practice, and the leap from shortscale bass is a big one! Did some searching around and found this useful exercise for combating cramp and fatigue and stuff. Thought I'd share it.

a. Put your arm out in front of you and your palm away and up (as though to say stop) pull your fingertips back towards you with your other hand - 15 seconds. b. Now with arm still out in same position point the hand down to ground and then pull the finger tips back with that other hand again - 15 seconds. c. Now turn your arm, elbow UP so that your palm is facing your face and stretch the fingers back towards you with your other hand again - 15 seconds. d. Now tip your palm back down toward the ground away from you - elbow still up to sky - and pull your hand back toward your chest - 15 seconds. e. Now repeat all 4 stretches with the other arm/hand. Remember to take deep breath's throughout the routine.

I've tried it a few times and it works nicely. Apparently it's a similar exercise for anyone suffering tennis elbow and such.

[jdstrings]

A few more thoughts for you:

Is your bass set up really well? After 14 months it's not entirely surprising that it can still be really hard work, but if your bass has set up issues it could make life harder.
It's worth checking (or getting checked by someone who understands these things) the string height at the nut. This is often left too high on 'factory' setups to ensure that when the bass is sold there are no unpleasant fingerboard buzzes to put off perspective purchasers. If the fingerboard is properly shaped then the gap under the strings at the nut should be tiny (definitely less than a millimeter).
Also string spacing at the nut and the bridge can have an effect. If you have smaller hands or fingers the distance from where you hook your right hand thumb round the fingerboard (if you do) to the 'g' string can have an impact.
I also notice you have a 5 string bass. This will presumably have a bigger/thicker neck for you to work with and will entail a bigger stretch to pluck the g string both of which will make life slightly harder. I know it's quite drastic, but if you are mainly playing jazz gigs it might be worth considering getting a 4 string or at least trying one out to see if it's easier. I can't imagine the bottom string gets a whole lot of use?
There are other 'set up' adjustments that might also make your life easier by making the bass respond or speak better. These include soundpost adjustment, bridge adjustment, tailpiece adjustment and bottom saddle height adjustment (which in effect alters the downward pressure of the strings on the top of the instrument). All of these can have an effect an even if each is only small they can soon add up.
Finally it's worth considering the type of strings you are using and their characteristics such as tension, thickness, and the amount they 'roll' when you play them. I've used some 'less expensive' synthetic cored strings which (certainly on the bass I had them on) were horrible because they rolled a considerable amount each time they were plucked which made everything seem 'treacle-y' for want of a better word and made me dig in and work a lot harder.

I hope all that is not too overwhelming and that some of it proves relevant to you!

[gilmour]

I find monitoring a real issue with upright, above all else if I can't hear myself it doesn't help my already patchy intonation.

I've been toying with getting [url="http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1696&brandID=2"]one of these[/url] or something similar, and having in ears, but before the mixer so it's only upright.


[quote name='Bilbo' post='1130836' date='Feb 17 2011, 12:12 PM']I am a 14 months into the double bass and have done gigs where I have played two sets without any problems and others where I have to go to the Wal after one.[/quote]

I guess that's why runners call it 'Hitting the wal"

[Bilbo]

[quote name='jdstrings' post='1133006' date='Feb 19 2011, 01:55 AM']I hope all that is not too overwhelming and that some of it proves relevant to you![/quote]

Really helpful, Jerome. I kinda knew that getting a set up would be helpful but I have been quoted anything up to £600 for all the different elements (inc strings, bridge etc) and just haven't got that kind of money available at the moment. I have a set of Evah Weich's on there so the strings are good quality. To be honest, the most positive part of your post was the 'After 14 months it's not entirely surprising that it can still be really hard work' bit! I have played both of Jake Newman's basses and found them like butter - much easier to play but they are worth between 3 and 6x what I paid for mine so I wasn't surprised

I guess I just need to figure out how to get the bass looked at without having to sell a kidney.

[Beedster]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1141342' date='Feb 25 2011, 03:28 PM']Really helpful, Jerome. I kinda knew that getting a set up would be helpful but I have been quoted anything up to £600 for all the different elements (inc strings, bridge etc) and just haven't got that kind of money available at the moment. I have a set of Evah Weich's on there so the strings are good quality. To be honest, the most positive part of your post was the 'After 14 months it's not entirely surprising that it can still be really hard work' bit! I have played both of Jake Newman's basses and found them like butter - much easier to play but they are worth between 3 and 6x what I paid for mine so I wasn't surprised

I guess I just need to figure out how to get the bass looked at without having to sell a kidney.[/quote]

This makes a lot of things simpler. Comes up on aBay occasionally. I got mine from the US for about £35 delivered in less than a week

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Setup-Repair-Double-Optimum-Sound/dp/1892210061"]http://www.amazon.com/Setup-Repair-Double-...d/dp/1892210061[/url]

C

[benbastin]

I used to have lots of problems with fatigue in gigs. and volume can often be a cause of this.
I but think that working on the acoustic volume of the bass is important. Unless we're talking very very cheap basses a good amount of acoustic volume is always workable from an instrument. I found once I was able to have a loud acoustic sound, I had a lot less problems hearing myself in gigs (this is obviously negated when everything is at 11)
In most situations things should be as loud as the loudest un-amplified instrument. But don't be afraid to ask people to turn it down a bit if its getting tough.

Also a word on set up, I found every time i got my bass back from the shop it was easier to play then after few months it was harder again. I realised that the bridge pulls upwards a bit, causing higher action and higher string tension. This happens naturally due to the way we play, but if once a month or so check that the bridge is seated correctly. Don't be afraid to move it gently yourself. If your confident you can do this under tension, or loosen the strings a little bit then do it. This will make a big difference. Or at least it did for me.

But when ever possible try to give your bass volume before amping it.
Hope it makes sense.

Ben

[Beedster]

[quote name='benbastin' post='1141384' date='Feb 25 2011, 03:57 PM']I used to have lots of problems with fatigue in gigs. and volume can often be a cause of this.
I but think that working on the acoustic volume of the bass is important. Unless we're talking very very cheap basses a good amount of acoustic volume is always workable from an instrument. I found once I was able to have a loud acoustic sound, I had a lot less problems hearing myself in gigs (this is obviously negated when everything is at 11)
In most situations things should be as loud as the loudest un-amplified instrument. But don't be afraid to ask people to turn it down a bit if its getting tough.

Also a word on set up, I found every time i got my bass back from the shop it was easier to play then after few months it was harder again. I realised that the bridge pulls upwards a bit, causing higher action and higher string tension. This happens naturally due to the way we play, but if once a month or so check that the bridge is seated correctly. Don't be afraid to move it gently yourself. If your confident you can do this under tension, or loosen the strings a little bit then do it. This will make a big difference. Or at least it did for me.

But when ever possible try to give your bass volume before amping it.
Hope it makes sense.

Ben[/quote]

It's an interesting area, and one that seems to get the guys on Talkbass quite agitated. The DB I play now has lower volume but better tone than my old one. I have to work a lot harder on amplification and EQ, but I can't help thinking that now that I understand its nuances, my live sound is better. I certainly think that if you're playing unplugged, potential volume is extremely important.

[Beedster]

[quote name='benbastin' post='1141384' date='Feb 25 2011, 03:57 PM']I used to have lots of problems with fatigue in gigs. and volume can often be a cause of this.
I but think that working on the acoustic volume of the bass is important. Unless we're talking very very cheap basses a good amount of acoustic volume is always workable from an instrument. I found once I was able to have a loud acoustic sound, I had a lot less problems hearing myself in gigs (this is obviously negated when everything is at 11)
In most situations things should be as loud as the loudest un-amplified instrument. But don't be afraid to ask people to turn it down a bit if its getting tough.

Also a word on set up, I found every time i got my bass back from the shop it was easier to play then after few months it was harder again. I realised that the bridge pulls upwards a bit, causing higher action and higher string tension. This happens naturally due to the way we play, but if once a month or so check that the bridge is seated correctly. Don't be afraid to move it gently yourself. If your confident you can do this under tension, or loosen the strings a little bit then do it. This will make a big difference. Or at least it did for me.

But when ever possible try to give your bass volume before amping it.
Hope it makes sense.

Ben[/quote]

PS very good advice re the bridge

[benbastin]

I should have said that this definitely something that can vary, and there's a personal preference thing there as well. Some people prefer their sound quieter and then beef it up through the amp.
Some people have a quiet bass. But within these parameters, there are a lot of ways to increase your acoustic volume without sacrificing tone, and for me 9 times out of 10 this translate very well to an amplified sound.

Also a point worth saying in this topic (which I'm sure no one does but just in case )
I think that you should always practice acoustically. Work on the sound of you and your bass, there are obviously time where you need to fire up the amp, dial in your eq etc. But for the real practice, you want to hear exactly the sound you are making from the bass.

Anyways, I'll get down from my high horse right now.

[benbastin]

I should have said that this definitely something that can vary, and there's a personal preference thing there as well. Some people prefer their sound quieter and then beef it up through the amp.
Some people have a quiet bass. But within these parameters, there are a lot of ways to increase your acoustic volume without sacrificing tone, and for me 9 times out of 10 this translate very well to an amplified sound.

Also a point worth saying in this topic (which I'm sure no one does but just in case )
I think that you should always practice acoustically. Work on the sound of you and your bass, there are obviously time where you need to fire up the amp, dial in your eq etc. But for the real practice, you want to hear exactly the sound you are making from the bass.

Anyways, I'll get down from my high horse right now.

[Beedster]

[quote name='benbastin' post='1141464' date='Feb 25 2011, 04:50 PM']I should have said that this definitely something that can vary, and there's a personal preference thing there as well. Some people prefer their sound quieter and then beef it up through the amp.
Some people have a quiet bass. But within these parameters, there are a lot of ways to increase your acoustic volume without sacrificing tone, and for me 9 times out of 10 this translate very well to an amplified sound.

Also a point worth saying in this topic (which I'm sure no one does but just in case )
I think that you should always practice acoustically. Work on the sound of you and your bass, there are obviously time where you need to fire up the amp, dial in your eq etc. But for the real practice, you want to hear exactly the sound you are making from the bass.

Anyways, I'll get down from my high horse right now.

[/quote]

+1 to all that.

[xzodar]

[quote name='gilmour' post='1133122' date='Feb 19 2011, 10:08 AM']I find monitoring a real issue with upright, above all else if I can't hear myself it doesn't help my already patchy intonation.

I've been toying with getting [url="http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1696&brandID=2"]one of these[/url] or something similar, and having in ears, but before the mixer so it's only upright.[/quote]

I don't play upright (yet) but I have been using an 'ART My monitor'which is similar to the SAMSON unit in the link above for my vocal mic on-stage and see no reason why you couldn't use it to tap into the mic'd signal from the bass instead.

The advantage is that you can also mix in a feed from the desk for a monitor mix and blend the two if needed and having in-ear phones means that you can run it at quite a low volume and still hear yourself clearly.

[Gareth Hughes]

+1 to using in-ears if it's possible. I say 'possible' because some gigs it just won't seem appropriate for various reasons. I've had great results running in-ears on theatre gigs, with my bass in one channel and a monitor mix in the other. This works fine for me because I'm not having to deal with loud background noise of punters talking and I have a dedicated soundcheck time and monitor guy. For gigs that don't have those luxuries, I wouldn't be bringing all those extra cables, power supplies, boxes, etc to my weekly residency's.

As for fatigue - one thing that's helped me enormously lately is using a bent endpin - it shifts the weight of the bass away from the left hand drastically. I'm sure there are ways to stand with a straight endpin and achieve similar results, but for my height/posture this works best.

I definitely believe that not hearing yourself properly can lead to overplaying which leads to fatigue. Sometimes it isn't about overall volume, but the volume of certain frequencies. I have a weekly gig with a pianist/singer where I was constantly struggling to get a clean sound. His piano wasn't too loud, my amp wasn't too loud and then I discovered the problem - there was a huge peak of low frequencies in his vocal, through the monitors that was fighting against my bass. You could see the input level light up immediately when he sang and I wasn't playing a note. Turning down wasn't an option so I moved the monitor as far away from me as possible and everything was sorted. On other gigs, I'll get the same problem with my bass resonating with each kick-drum hit. Sometimes that's what we're at the mercy of - but if you're aware of it, and have sympathetic band mates then a compromise can be met.

[BobVbass]

Volume and how much you have to "work" to be heared definitely affects cramps etc - I normally play 3 hour sets; fast rock and roll so normally pretty punishing really & I find stretching forearm muscles between songs and varying finger positions, alternating between slapping and plucking etc helps me through - that and just not trying to hard on some songs - at the end of three hours tho it can be tough on the last few songs....