Recording a good bass sound

[flyfisher]

I've read about bassists who DI into a PA system via some sort of amp-modelling 'pod' to get the tone they want.

I'm wondering if a there's a VST-equivalent of such a thing that can be used for recording purposes?

I'd guess there must be, somewhere, but I've been looking through numerous free-VST sites and there seems to be zillions of VSTs out there, so it would help if anyone could give any personal recommendations based on their recording experience.

Thanks for any suggestions.

[lettsguitars]

i used to use the ampeg thing. can't remember the name but it's out there. you cannot beat a mic and amp thats for sure. get yourself some waves.
ampitube works for bass to get an 'amped' sound. di is cool though with a good limiter and clever eq.

Edited February 20, 2011 by lettsguitars

[chrismuzz]

I'm not sure if this is what you mean, as I have only ever recorded via a combination of DI and a mic'd up cab straight into a desk. But Markbass have brought out some software called Mark Studio 1, that might be worth looking into

[Joelwidds]

Softube Bass amp room is easly the best and most realistic out there. IK Amplitube is pretty nice too at a great price.

[url="http://softube.se/bass_amp_room.php"]http://softube.se/bass_amp_room.php[/url]

I think I must have tryed everyone on the market and nothing stands upto Softube and IK.

With softube you can really dig into the notes and hear the model of the tube cunch I would say IK has a simular vibe but more clean and mordern sounding and modeld from different unit from to softube wich give a different result.

Edited February 20, 2011 by Joelwidds

[leonshelley01]

I use Line 6 Pod Farm and have got some quite good results.

[flyfisher]

Some interesting stuff there, though I was hoping for some pointers to any decent free VSTs while I'm still learning about all ths stuff.

So far, I've just been using the DI output of my Ashdown head for recording. I was happy with it at first but the more time I spend playing around with mixes, the less I'm satisfied with the sound - I hope this is not the start of a never-ending slippery slope of continual searching for the ultimate tone!

I've not tried the suggestion of using a combination of DI and a mic'd cabinet, which sounds interesting. I've been trying to avoid mic'd cabs in order to keep playing volumes down and therefore avoid bleed into the vocal mics. I'm trying to record our band playing 'live', albeit in a home environment, rather than one track at a time. I'm certainly not having and bleed problems, but I'm beginning to wonder if I'm compromising the instrument sounds a bit too much.

Before I put together a multi-track recording set-up, we just used a single mic to record everything. As you can imagine, this was far from ideal and the first results from multi-tracking were a giant leap forward. Now, having made that step, I'm getting more critical about the individual sounds again. Still, it's fun to learn new stuff.

Any tips from people recording their own bands? (other than using a pro studio!).

BTW, does anyone know the principle of how these amp modelling gadgets work? Do they modify the actual instrument sound or do they just detect the fundamental note the instrument makes and then, effectively, synthesise the new tone? Or perhaps a combination of the two? I've seen some midi-controlled devices, which I assume work on the synthesis principle, but I'm not sure about how they work with a real bass.

[51m0n]

In (extremely) simple terms modelling works by first running a lot of test signals through an actual device and measuring the diff of the output to the original, then (the clever bit) extrapolating an algorithm that can be applied to the original source to produce the output computationally.

This needs to capture what happens at all frequencies and dynamic levels too.

Now imagine going through all the possible setups wrt the controls on the face of the device (input gain, eq, output gain, any other filters etc) and modelling not only how they change the source sound, but how they interact with each other. Quite a big task.

[51m0n]

In reality you dont really want to send the bass frequencies through the simulator (using the DI signal for bass is tried and tested).

So really any half decent amp/cab sim is going to be fine, I've had good results with Shred, which is a free guitar oientated cab/amp sim.

Dont get too carried away with 'that SVT sound', just go for somethiung you like, and remember anything under 150Hz or so is probably best left to the DI

Edited February 21, 2011 by 51m0n

[WHUFC BASS]

You'd be surprised how much better a bass guitar will sound when recording with a new set of strings on.

[algmusic]

It depends if I'm recording for demos or pro recordings..


at home -

*Sanamp or Terror Bass
*Bass DI

In studio:
* Bass DI
* Mic Amp
* Sanamp

Plug ins are ok, but TBH, most I know more and more people using good basses, with good amps or pre amps

If you got yourself a sanamps, you can use it live aswell..

[flyfisher]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1135316' date='Feb 21 2011, 12:10 PM']In (extremely) simple terms modelling works by first running a lot of test signals through an actual device and measuring the diff of the output to the original, then (the clever bit) extrapolating an algorithm that can be applied to the original source to produce the output computationally.[/quote]
I reckon I could figure out how the testing part of the development could be largely automated, but I can't imagine where to start with defining an algorithm to reproduce the captured results - the clever bit indeed!

[quote name='51m0n' post='1135327' date='Feb 21 2011, 12:17 PM']In reality you dont really want to send the bass frequencies through the simulator (using the DI signal for bass is tried and tested).

So really any half decent amp/cab sim is going to be fine, I've had good results with Shred, which is a free guitar oientated cab/amp sim.

Dont get too carried away with 'that SVT sound', just go for somethiung you like, and remember anything under 150Hz or so is probably best left to the DI[/quote]

That makes sense and is something I should be able to easily try - thanks for that.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='WHUFC BASS' post='1135384' date='Feb 21 2011, 12:57 PM']You'd be surprised how much better a bass guitar will sound when recording with a new set of strings on.[/quote]

Ah, that's an interesting point. It's been a few, er, years since I changed them.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='algmusic' post='1135431' date='Feb 21 2011, 01:30 PM']Plug ins are ok, but TBH, most I know more and more people using good basses, with good amps or pre amps

If you got yourself a sanamps, you can use it live aswell..[/quote]

Don't give me an excuse to buy even more gear! Actually, I'm beginning to wonder if VSTs are just a 'phase' I need to pass through - but at least (I think) I'm learning lots at the moment, even if it turns out to be what [u]not[/u] to do.



Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. BC really is a great resource !

[51m0n]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1135530' date='Feb 21 2011, 02:27 PM']I reckon I could figure out how the testing part of the development could be largely automated, but I can't imagine where to start with defining an algorithm to reproduce the captured results - the clever bit indeed![/quote]

You are not alone!

Seems a very dark old art indeed that one, especially when taking into account the way the controls work and interact with the circuit in a lot of older analogue gear.

But convolution reverbs work much the same way.

I think the trick is not to assume a human writes 'the algorithm' so much as a human writes the code that compares the two signals and computes the differences, and that difference, or transformation, can then be applied to any sound with another piece of software....

It ain't that simple of course, but that is about the only way I can describe it to myself without reference to pixies, leprechauns and magic pixelated fairy dust....

[skankdelvar]

Once you find a sim that works for you, try the following:

* Record your bass part clean
* Copy the part to an adjacent track making sure they're perfectly aligned
* Put the amp sim on the second track
* Mute the clean track and fiddle with the amp sim till you get close to a sound you like
* Unmute the clean track
* Fiddle with the volume balance between the two, applying appropriate EQ, compression etc to each track until it sounds nice.

The clean track supplies definition, the sim track adds warmth, etc. After all this fun, you can always send the two tracks to a bus, track folder, whatever, for kick drum ducking, etc.

Edited February 21, 2011 by skankdelvar

[algmusic]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1135573' date='Feb 21 2011, 03:06 PM']Once you find a sim that works for you, try the following:

* Record your bass part clean
* Copy the part to an adjacent track making sure they're perfectly aligned
* Put the amp sim on the second track
* Mute the clean track and fiddle with the amp sim till you get close to a sound you like
* Unmute the clean track
* Fiddle with the volume balance between the two, applying appropriate EQ, compression etc to each track until it sounds nice.

The clean track supplies definition, the sim track adds warmth, etc. After all this fun, you can always send the two tracks to a bus, track folder, whatever, for kick drum ducking, etc.[/quote]

That's technialy re-amping, which I know alot of guys do.. it's a great way to play around with your sound.. The straight DI first is the key, alot of people miss that

[Bilbo]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1135573' date='Feb 21 2011, 03:06 PM']Once you find a sim that works for you, try the following:

* Record your bass part clean
* Copy the part to an adjacent track making sure they're perfectly aligned
* Put the amp sim on the second track
* Mute the clean track and fiddle with the amp sim till you get close to a sound you like
* Unmute the clean track
* Fiddle with the volume balance between the two, applying appropriate EQ, compression etc to each track until it sounds nice.

The clean track supplies definition, the sim track adds warmth, etc. After all this fun, you can always send the two tracks to a bus, track folder, whatever, for kick drum ducking, etc.[/quote]

Marvellous. Why didn't I think of that....

[51m0n]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1135573' date='Feb 21 2011, 03:06 PM']Once you find a sim that works for you, try the following:

* Record your bass part clean
* Copy the part to an adjacent track making sure they're perfectly aligned
* Put the amp sim on the second track
* Mute the clean track and fiddle with the amp sim till you get close to a sound you like
* Unmute the clean track
* Fiddle with the volume balance between the two, applying appropriate EQ, compression etc to each track until it sounds nice.

The clean track supplies definition, the sim track adds warmth, etc. After all this fun, you can always send the two tracks to a bus, track folder, whatever, for kick drum ducking, etc.[/quote]


Additional tuuppence worth:-

If you want a dirtier sound then filter the clean sound at ~150Hz with a low pass filter and the simmed sound at a50Hz with a hi-pass filter.

Dont be afraid to re-eq the combined signal, or compress the whole.

Makes for a punchier bottom end with the option to add a lot more growl...

[lowdown]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1135571' date='Feb 21 2011, 03:06 PM']But convolution reverbs work much the same way.[/quote]

I have tried a few VST Amp plugs, and got far better results using
SIR 2 and cabinet IR's, and there are plenty knocking about the tinternet free.
But to be honest my Avalon U5 just out does any of it.

A good set up Bass and a decent Pre-amp will get great results to start with,
Then maybe some minimal EQ for the mix.
If you can not get a good sound that way, no plug in the world will make it sound any better.



Garry

[lettsguitars]

re-amp works a treat. di until you nail it then take a day off work to record the signal through yer amp.

[Joelwidds]

This all seems to have got carried away.
If i've learn anything recording is so so simple
Good equipment and techniques = Good sound theres no magic going on.



Good player -> Good Bass -> New strings -> Good DI -> Good AD Converters -> Hardrive. = Nice sound

You take one of these elements away and its going to go down hill.

Once you have a nice clean DI then your amp sims and VST are going to sound good and the sayings are "You cant polish and turd" and "Garbage in in garbage out".

If you havent got a good bass in the first place then thats what you should fix.

Thats chain neeeds to be the best it can because a amp sim and eq's arent the place to go.
EQ is for fixing things but you don't have to fix it if you get it right it the first place.

Plugings are a fad just used in the wrong way by so many people.

[lettsguitars]

noooo. plugins are used by the best studios[quote name='Joelwidds' post='1135750' date='Feb 21 2011, 04:48 PM']This all seems to have got carried away.
If i've learn anything recording is so so simple
Good equipment and techniques = Good sound theres no magic going on.



Good player -> Good Bass -> New strings -> Good DI -> Good AD Converters -> Hardrive. = Nice sound

You take one of these elements away and its going to go down hill.

Once you have a nice clean DI then your amp sims and VST are going to sound good and the sayings are "You cant polish and turd" and "Garbage in in garbage out".

If you havent got a good bass in the first place then thats what you should fix.

Thats chain neeeds to be the best it can because a amp sim and eq's arent the place to go.
EQ is for fixing things but you don't have to fix it if you get it right it the first place.

Plugings are a fad just used in the wrong way by so many people.[/quote]

[51m0n]

[quote name='Joelwidds' post='1135750' date='Feb 21 2011, 04:48 PM']This all seems to have got carried away.
If i've learn anything recording is so so simple
Good equipment and techniques = Good sound theres no magic going on.



Good player -> Good Bass -> New strings -> Good DI -> Good AD Converters -> Hardrive. = Nice sound

You take one of these elements away and its going to go down hill.

Once you have a nice clean DI then your amp sims and VST are going to sound good and the sayings are "You cant polish and turd" and "Garbage in in garbage out".

If you havent got a good bass in the first place then thats what you should fix.

Thats chain neeeds to be the best it can because a amp sim and eq's arent the place to go.
EQ is for fixing things but you don't have to fix it if you get it right it the first place.

Plugings are a fad just used in the wrong way by so many people.[/quote]


Ok, I understnd the sentiment, really I do, KISS and all that, and new strings are very important for a good bass sound, decent kit played well is a must too.

It doesnt end there though.

I've heard great bass tones played through pretty average signal chains set up really well, and I've heard utter plop through far more esoteric signal chains. How you set the kit up is more important than the name on the fron tof the box.

EQ is not for 'fixing things' when recording and mixing. EQ is for cutting out the parts of instruments you dont need to make room for other instruments at that point in the frequency spectrum. It is for selecting the best parts of the instrument that are required in a given piece. The busier the piece the more you have to cut out of everything (generally) to get a clean mix at the end - of cource

Getting a really decent overdrive requires either a mic'ed cab (my preference) or a decent amp/cab sim. In either event retaining a solid bottom end is generally easier if that part of the bass signal is dry (ie the clean DI), always was the case, and always will be. There will be times when the overall sound of the band make this not the case, but that isnt generally the case IME.

This is not about polishing turds, this is about making the most of what you have, and using the constituent parts for what they do best. Its a very good mindset to have when recording.

Plug ins are by no means a fad, they are very definitely here to stay. Thats a mind bogglingly weird thing to say!

All recording equiptment is often used the wrong way, some of the people doing so are very deliberate about it, and the results are amazing. On the other hand some people read all the books and do everything how the books say, and turn out garbage.

[flyfisher]

I've got nowhere near enough experience of recording yet to really know what's best, but I have an idea of what I'm trying to achieve - I'm just not sure if it'll work or how close I can get to it!

My instinct is to keep things simple. I don't really want to get carried away with sophisticated productions and end up with something that we can't reproduce when playing live. My interest in VSTs for 'modelling' was really to substitute for mic'ing up an amp running at gig volumes, the idea being to play quietly to avoid bleed into the vocal mics (it's also quite handy in a home environment!).

So, we effectively record by playing live rather than laying down a track at a time, and tweak the instrument tones using a suitable VST if I can find one, or two. Other stuff such as a bit of vocal reverb or instrument compression is easy to reproduce when playing live anyway.

But, as I say, that's just my theory and I'm open enough to accept I might be trying the wrong approach. It seems I've got a lot of learning to do to actually get it right . . . and by then I might have found the 'proper' way to do it.

But there are some great ideas being aired and I'm loving the discussion!

[urb]

[quote name='lowdown' post='1135700' date='Feb 21 2011, 04:17 PM']I have tried a few VST Amp plugs, and got far better results using
SIR 2 and cabinet IR's, and there are plenty knocking about the tinternet free.
But to be honest my Avalon U5 just out does any of it.

A good set up Bass and a decent Pre-amp will get great results to start with,
Then maybe some minimal EQ for the mix.
If you can not get a good sound that way, no plug in the world will make it sound any better.



Garry[/quote]

I totally agree - I've got really sweet sounds from all my basses, all great quality instruments, by running them through the most basic bass/guitar amp that comes with Logic, this gives me a great clean sound that I've A/B'd with the sound I get via either the Mark Bass Studio 1 plugin, Amplitube or other modeling software - and I prefer the huge range of tones I can get from my basses than all the 'simulated' sounds. However I do think the plugins create some great tones I do use from time to time - but overall I think they can make your tone sound 'forced' IMO.

One question I have got for you lovely lot is related to this subject though; is there a noticeable advantage to using a valve compressor as a preamp / interface between bass and DAW?

Thanks for any answers...

Mike