Rabbath v Simandl

[fatback]

Accidentally came across stuff about Rabbath's 6-position pivot method on Youtube.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54pMdTCmo8g"]Rabbath discussed[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy-03jH_mrE&playnext=1&list=PLB1638AE9A4C700AC"]Rabbath himself[/url]

How do the learned rate it as a method? I know he's come up on here once or twice, but I haven't found much in the way of opinion on the merits.

Last night I did a simple comparison of my intonation in Dflat maj using Simandl type fingering (and so shifts) and Rabbath's pivoting. I was consistently better with Rabbath, in fact next to perfect (not to say way faster as well). I had practiced the scale and intervalic exercises using Rabbath for a minute or two and the Simandl for weeks.

As it happens, I use pivoting on the fretless, so no doubt that made a big difference. But I'm not at all surprised that intonation is easier to nail with pivots and few arm movements than it lots is with lots of arm movements over a large number of (unmemorable ) Simandl positions.

Shoot me for this, but it also seems vastly more musical, in that moving between keys is so much more natural.

My teacher is unlikely to wear anything but Simandl, so no doubt I'll carry on with that, but I'm tempted to be sneaky and privately work on combining Simandl (lowest positions) with Rabbath for the rest. Problem is, it may screw up my progress with reading.

Am I doing heresy again? Causing myself more problems than I've already got?


Thanks for your thoughts as always.

Edited February 23, 2011 by fatback

[Gareth Hughes]

I have the first of his method books but I haven't really delved into it at all. Still sawing through Simandl - which is more than counter-intuitive when you already have the pivot idea developed from playing electric bass. I'll definitely be digging the book out and working through it tomorrow tho - these videos are quite inspiring. I have the 'Art Of The Bow' DVD, which has a lot of the same stories/explanations. Rabbath is a great teacher for sure - he gets you excited about learning!!!

One thing I did try - in an attempt to alleviate some back/posture problems I was having - is the bent endpin. For me, it makes a world of difference. My bass position isn't as cello-like as Rabbath's - standing behind the bass - but it's close. The benefit to me is better intonation, no left-hand fatigue from taking any of the bass's weight, and more strength in both pizz and arco with the right hand. I'm just home from a 3 hour gig and have little to no fatigue in both hands. I did the same gig last week with a straight endpin and had to change it after the first few numbers because my left hand was in pieces. Worth investigating IMO.

[dougal]

I'm not all that learned, but I'm a fan of Rabbath: George Vances Progressive Repertoire books are a must (IMHO).

I think it was The Major (Minor) who pointed out all the pros play half way up the neck as it's less stress on the left hand: the vance books start up half way up the neck and de-mystify that whole area of the bass.

I want a bent end-pin, but I don't want to destroy my bass doing it!

[Gareth Hughes]

[quote name='dougal' post='1139813' date='Feb 24 2011, 12:10 PM']I want a bent end-pin, but I don't want to destroy my bass doing it![/quote]

No need to destroy your bass at all. I just have a steel rod that has been welded and bent to a certain angle - bought fro George Vance. There's nothing fancy to it. A local iron welder was able to make me another one, for a different height, out of the same material he uses for making iron railings. Not the prettiest to look at, but so what? As long as it fits in the endpin collar, then you're fine.

As well as taking the weight away from your left hand, I find that I hear more from the bass as the body is now angled upwards instead of directly away from.

Do excuse the derail Fatback!!!

[endorka]

I've often wondered about this, and other alternative approaches to the double bass.

Usually this happens when I'm having to play something that is really not suited to the Simandl approach. In the past I investigated a simpler form of pivoting (I think it was from a book by Portnoy).

In a recent piece I am playing there is a lot of fast scalar work in F major around the neck heel. Using Simandl 1-2-4 fingering involves so much shifting as to make the execution of the passage clumsy, but moving to a 1-2-3-4 approach for this part of the piece makes it easy and smooth.

Using 1-2-3-4 around the neck heel is physically manageable, but then the questions start to arrive. Should I always use this fingering around the neck heel? If so, how to change from 1-2-4 to 1-2-3-4 in passages that go in and out of this area a lot? If not, when should it be used? Naturally, someone has already done some work on this with the Simandl Plus method, which I may look into, time permitting.

Looking at the video example shown of the Rabbath method, the first thing I wonder is: What if you have a passage alternating from C to D on the G string? Presumably you don't alternative between the extreme of one position for the C and the opposite extreme of the other position for the D for each note. I assume there must be some kind of "intermediate" or transitional position?

Essentially, this is where I get stuck with these newer methods. Once I start thinking like this, it all seems incredibly complicated and I start to wonder if I'm just trying to avoid the hard graft that is Simandl, and that these new methods are something of a diversion. After all, I've seen great players with great intonation using Simandl technique.

I guess part of the difficulty of this is that if I am going to spend a couple of years learning a new system, I want to be doing it for the correct reasons.

Your thoughts on this are most welcome, I certainly don't have the answers :-)

Jennifer

[Hector]

My thoughts are:

There are so many different methods because there is no one key solution! By all means study different methods, this is essential to finding a playing style that suits you. I think Simandl is certainly a great, tried and tested basis, for learning the bass and getting a solid foundation on the fingerboard. I would recommend getting comfortable with Simandl as a reference point with which to compare other techniques. However, Rabbath's method provides extra facility at times where Simandl might appear flawed.

It's up to you to take what you can and make it into something that works for you. Try different things and get something that fits with what your physique, your bass etc. I, for one, having worked through "traditional" school etudes such as Simandl (although I personally prefer Petracchi's method for thumb position playing, so don't really rate Simandl book II) and Bille (but with Simandl style fingerings, 1-2-4 rather than 1-3-4), have recently started on Rabbath's method. I can already see that in lower positions I might not feel as solid using a pivot, but sometimes a particularly fast passage might be executed with more finesse by pivoting.

Jen, that's a great question, and the answer is that there are intermediates between the positions (for example, the pivot works in both directions!) - Rabbath's method has over a hundred different fingerings for each scale! The way he puts it that the more options you have, the better you are able to play and the better you know the bass.

I think it's really important to stress that Rabbath should very much be considered an extension of Simandl. The way I see it, if you can't play Simandl properly, you're not gonna be able to do it properly with a pivot thrown in there too! Simandl doesn't solve every technical issue of playing the bass, but it provides a basis to work from.

In terms of actually playing etudes, Simandl's stuff is quite boring in comparison, but is pretty good for you. I do wish sometimes that I had been introduced to the higher positions of the neck earlier on (Simandl neglects this until book II), because it's important to be comfortable all over the neck.

Also, it's worth pointing out that a lot of what makes Rabbath an insane player is his incredible right hand technique. I'd mud wrestle my granny for a right hand like that!

[fatback]

Great to have your thoughts on this. Please keep them coming.

Apart from it being easier for me to get the intonation right, it looks like there might be a another, bigger advantage for me in Rabbath. Because more notes are under the fingers (like the guitar), i can think more musically. Scales and modes seem obvious. For example, I can have a go at two-octave scales and arpeggios, even venturing into the thumb positions, where with Simandl I'm miles away from that.

My biggest problem starting with Simandl was that i couldn't connect it to music as I already played it. With Rabbath, you restrict yourself to fewer positions than on guitar but other than that, if you pivot on a fretless already, it all comes very naturally.

I'm not saying I'll avoid Simandl, I won't, but this a total revelation. I'm not saying either that it's better for someone who already knows Simandl, but for someone switching from guitar, with no previous investment in a method, maybe it offers a smoother route.

What do you think?

@Dougal, thanks for the tip on George Vance's book.

Edited February 24, 2011 by fatback

[fatback]

Just found an interesting comparison from a teacher:

[url="http://doublebassblog.org/2006/11/rabbath-versus-simandl-comparative.html"]comparison[/url]

He's found Vance / Rabbath best for learners & intermediate and Simandl for advanced / orchestral.

Well, I know which i am

[Owen]

I am not technically sure what I use, I'm guessing the Rabbath is closest to it but I have never looked at it so am not sure. My teacher studied with Garry Karr and I use 1 finger per semitone. There is a very slight pivot going on, but if I want to I can do F to G sharp on the E string (one of the Enigma variations - I cannot remember which one, it has been a long time!) without pivoting. I got some very odd looks from other bass tutors when I went to youth orchestras outside my county, but my intonation has always been rock solid. I must admit I feel that it is more about knowing the fingerboard than a set finger pattern. When I am feeling lazy or my chops are down I will do octaves and 5ths using fingers 1- 4, but if I am doing stuff that is fast and tricky then it is 1234 all the way. The lack of shifting always struck me as being a more stable way of playing. Having said that, Simandl is used very widely and everyone seems to be very happy with what they are doing.

For me it is more about knowing where the note is and which finger is closest.

[endorka]

[quote name='fatback' post='1140589' date='Feb 24 2011, 10:38 PM']Just found an interesting comparison from a teacher:

[url="http://doublebassblog.org/2006/11/rabbath-versus-simandl-comparative.html"]comparison[/url]

He's found Vance / Rabbath best for learners & intermediate and Simandl for advanced / orchestral.[/quote]

Sounds interesting I'd say! I've just ordered the Vance book vol. 1, I plan on a good stint in the woodshed a month or so from now, let's see if it will clear my muddied mind :-)

Jennifer

[Bilbo]

I ask the question also whether there is a genre difference here in terms of what works. I did a rehearsal recently with a 'proper' violinist and mentioned that I was looking for an arco teacher who didn't live 60 miles away and we got talking about left hand technique and he said mine was much better than most players he had worked with in orchestras. It amused me because, in my own mind, I'm all over the place trying to get to where the players I listen to can get to but, in a nutchell, he seemed to think that a lot of classical bass playing was more 'centred' than jazz with fewer made skips etc. Reading this thread, I wondered whether owen's point about everyone being happy is about most people being able to do what they want to do because most people aren't doing madly technical stuff.

HEALTH WARNING!! I don't know what I am talking about

[Hector]

I'd say there's definitely an element of that Bilbo. I mean, the orchestral guys play in a different way to a lot of the jazz cats these days, and different playing style might suit a different method more or less. As I said, Simandl is seen as a starting point as it is simple and robust, but it doesn't tackle all the playing issues that exist, nor does it work perfectly for every player.

Also, thought it might be fun to see what one of Rabbath's ex students is getting up to since it highlights how useful Rabbath's method is at overcoming some playing issues: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDG0SyjQ9Qo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDG0SyjQ9Qo[/url] (I'd love to see someone try this with Simandl!) Different strokes for different folks basically, which is why it's so important to explore as many different techniques as possible to find which technique (or combination of techniques!) suits you as a player for what you want to do with the instrument.

Jennifer, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Vance book once you've had a go with it. I'm working direct out of Rabbath, and wouldn't mind comparing if it's ok with you?

Fatback: if it seems to make sense to you, then go for it! Also, the chap who wrote that article is the same guy in the lesson with Hans Sturm, Jason Heath. His podcast "Contrabass Conversations" is highly recommended, as is his Double Bass Blog.

Still gonna stress that regardless of what you think is good or not about Rabbath's fingering system, his [b]right hand[/b] technique is godly and should be studied intensely. Man uses a bow like an extension of his arm, so perfectly. Another Fons video to show what paying close attention to Rabbath's right arm gets you: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQsd2tAIgUE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQsd2tAIgUE[/url]

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Hector' post='1141163' date='Feb 25 2011, 01:10 PM']Still gonna stress that regardless of what you think is good or not about Rabbath's fingering system, his [b]right hand[/b] technique is godly and should be studied intensely. Man uses a bow like an extension of his arm, so perfectly. Another Fons video to show what paying close attention to Rabbath's right arm gets you: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQsd2tAIgUE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQsd2tAIgUE[/url][/quote]

Jaw on the floor stuff, what a remarkable talent.

Edit: Have to say though the fast staccato section later on gets tiring. I love what he does with the quarter tones though.

Edited February 25, 2011 by thisnameistaken

[Hector]

[quote name='fatback' post='1140557' date='Feb 24 2011, 10:12 PM']My biggest problem starting with Simandl was that i couldn't connect it to music as I already played it. With Rabbath, you restrict yourself to fewer positions than on guitar but other than that, if you pivot on a fretless already, it all comes very naturally.[/quote]

Spamming this thread a bit I know, but did you see the stuff Hans Sturm was talking about in those videos you linked to about using Simandl more musically? He was talking about playing scales in tetrachords (4 notes to a string), which to my mind/ears really opens them up to looking at the bigger picture musically. Really dug that idea in a big way!

[endorka]

[quote name='Hector' post='1141163' date='Feb 25 2011, 01:10 PM']Jennifer, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Vance book once you've had a go with it. I'm working direct out of Rabbath, and wouldn't mind comparing if it's ok with you?[/quote]

Will do! Really looking forward to getting into this actually :-)

Jennifer

[fatback]

[quote name='Hector' post='1141425' date='Feb 25 2011, 04:27 PM']Spamming this thread a bit I know, but did you see the stuff Hans Sturm was talking about in those videos you linked to about using Simandl more musically? He was talking about playing scales in tetrachords (4 notes to a string), which to my mind/ears really opens them up to looking at the bigger picture musically. Really dug that idea in a big way![/quote]

Absolutely! I was trying to get my head around that last night. Any way of thinking that joins up fingering and harmony is what i'm after.

It seemed to me from the start that Simandl may be very well suited to players who need to read parts, but for improvising over chord sequences it doesn't make much sense.

Edited February 25, 2011 by fatback

[fatback]

@ hector

Messing with that tetrachord business again, and it's just great. Flying around.

The moral of the story seems to be that no matter whether you use Simandl or Rabath fingering, you must think in bigger chunks than just a couple of adjacent notes. This is going to matter hugely to beginners who already play bass guitar.

Rabbath is intrinsically suited to this, but as you say, Hans Sturm shows that you can do it with Simandl too.

Both of these solve my problem. So in that respect it isn't 'either/or'.

This has put a real spark into my practicing now.

EDIT:

for anyone interested the h sturm vid that deals with this is:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTbF6QP-FoY"]tetrachords simandl[/url]

Edited February 25, 2011 by fatback

[endorka]

[quote name='fatback' post='1141785' date='Feb 25 2011, 09:10 PM']It seemed to me from the start that Simandl may be very well suited to players who need to read parts, but for improvising over chord sequences it doesn't make much sense.[/quote]

I found this to start with, but after a short time it began to make sense, even to the extent of employing good improvised fingerings ahead of playing them. I think your brain just starts to think a little more in advance in terms of technique than you need to with bass guitar.

However, I seem to recall reading a bit of Susan Blackmore's meme book where it claims that the brain only has the illusion of making a decision after the fact, or something similar, so maybe I'm just kidding myself on :-)

Jennifer

[lettsguitars]

always preferred sabbath!

[endorka]

[quote name='Hector' post='1141163' date='Feb 25 2011, 02:10 PM']Jennifer, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Vance book once you've had a go with it. I'm working direct out of Rabbath, and wouldn't mind comparing if it's ok with you?[/quote]

I've been going through the Vance book for a short time now, and first impressions are excellent.

It gets you onto thumb position and the neck heel almost immediately, and it is surprising how enjoyable this is in comparison to other methods. I'm not at all strong in thumb position, and other methods I've tried have been frankly terrifying, but this is a great and very musical approach.

I'll post a more complete review once I've completed the first book. Am considering getting the other two as there is a delay of three or four weeks in ordering, but wondering if it would be best just to go straight for the Rabbath nouvelle technique book one instead.

Jennifer

[fatback]

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' post='1139880' date='Feb 24 2011, 01:59 PM']No need to destroy your bass at all. I just have a steel rod that has been welded and bent to a certain angle - bought fro George Vance. There's nothing fancy to it. A local iron welder was able to make me another one, for a different height, out of the same material he uses for making iron railings. Not the prettiest to look at, but so what? As long as it fits in the endpin collar, then you're fine.

As well as taking the weight away from your left hand, I find that I hear more from the bass as the body is now angled upwards instead of directly away from.

Do excuse the derail Fatback!!![/quote]

Gareth, where did you get the specs for the bent endpin, the angle etc? Or did you buy your first ready made? I'd like to try one. I'm getting a sore left thumb no matter how much I try not to use it.

Edited April 4, 2011 by fatback

[Hector]

[quote name='endorka' post='1187154' date='Apr 3 2011, 10:05 PM']I've been going through the Vance book for a short time now, and first impressions are excellent.

It gets you onto thumb position and the neck heel almost immediately, and it is surprising how enjoyable this is in comparison to other methods. I'm not at all strong in thumb position, and other methods I've tried have been frankly terrifying, but this is a great and very musical approach.

I'll post a more complete review once I've completed the first book. Am considering getting the other two as there is a delay of three or four weeks in ordering, but wondering if it would be best just to go straight for the Rabbath nouvelle technique book one instead.

Jennifer[/quote]


Awesome! Sounds similar to my experiences working through Rabbath. I started on Book 3 of his method, as it has a "scale bible" with the 100+ fingerings for every 3 octave scale, plus 10+ arpeggio fingerings and fingers for scales in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths etc. The second half has some etudes (although they are [i]advanced[/i]) and an introduction to some Rabbath-specific things such as the Crab technique and some exercises for developing Natural/Artifical Harmonics. It's more of a complete reference book to come back to, whilst the other two deal with the positions in dribs and drabs. It also has a fold-out sheet of a ton of different bow strokes to practice scales with (somewhere in the region of 50!). The only thing it really lacks are gradiated studies to build up to the monster ones in this volume.

If you're desperate for more material, I'd go with Rabbath Book 3 for reference, and then get the other two Vance books for etudes/tunes to play using these techniques. (It's also a lot cheaper, as Rabbath books I and II cost a ton, whilst giving the same amount of material as Vance). This is what I'm doing, as you've sold the Vance books to me! Is the first book really easy, or worth it? I'm wondering where to start.

Also, rumour is that a 4th volume of Rabbath is coming out soon.....


[quote name='fatback' post='1187547' date='Apr 4 2011, 11:08 AM']Gareth, where did you get the specs for the bent endpin, the angle etc? Or did you buy your first ready made? I'd like to try one. I'm getting a sore left thumb no matter how much I try not to use it.[/quote]

Fatback, great news that you're getting into the idea of tetrachords. I'd stress that you're spot on - it never is either/or and Rabbath's method book includes Simandl fingerings for scales etc as well.

Also, I'd get a teacher to look at your left hand - that sort of soreness isn't usual. How long have you been playing? Sometimes it's a stamina issue. I'd take some time to work on that, concentrating on pulling your left hand back to stop notes, rather than pinching with the muscles in your hand. This uses the weight of your arm rather than muscular tension, and should reduce soreness. Maybe try playing a bit without your left thumb on the bass? It really highlights the difference between pulling and pinching.

By all means go for the bent endpin, but it won't entirely fix your hand issues. If a bent endpin added to ok left hand technique is better, I'd imagine a bent endpin added to great left hand technique is way better!

[dougal]

[quote]Gareth, where did you get the specs for the bent endpin, the angle etc?[/quote]

I was going to ask this too.

Also, how do you stop it rotating? does it have to be ground flat where the screw pins it?

Some initial investigation reveals you probably do.
[url="http://www.doublebassonline.com/2008/08/the-rabbath-end-pin/"]http://www.doublebassonline.com/2008/08/the-rabbath-end-pin/[/url]

Ahh, some step by step instructions!
[url="http://www.slavapub.net/pdf/LaborieEndpininstr.pdf"]http://www.slavapub.net/pdf/LaborieEndpininstr.pdf[/url]

Doesn't sound too hard. Something to do with my spare end-pin!

Edited April 4, 2011 by dougal

[fatback]

[quote name='Hector' post='1187794' date='Apr 4 2011, 02:27 PM']Also, I'd get a teacher to look at your left hand - that sort of soreness isn't usual. How long have you been playing? Sometimes it's a stamina issue. I'd take some time to work on that, concentrating on pulling your left hand back to stop notes, rather than pinching with the muscles in your hand. This uses the weight of your arm rather than muscular tension, and should reduce soreness. Maybe try playing a bit without your left thumb on the bass? It really highlights the difference between pulling and pinching.

By all means go for the bent endpin, but it won't entirely fix your hand issues. If a bent endpin added to ok left hand technique is better, I'd imagine a bent endpin added to great left hand technique is way better![/quote]

Sounds like very good advice. On reflection, I had no problems with the thumb and was pulling with the left shoulder very nicely until two things changed: I injured my left shoulder a couple of months ago, and independently I lengthened my endpin.

Could be that I'm not using the shoulder as much as I did cos of the injury. Or maybe the longer endpin and higher scroll is putting more leverage on the hand. I started playing with an endpin only two inches or so long (I'm 5.10") because it was so easy to keep a straight wrist that way and easy to pull from the shoulder. It was, of course, bad for arco because i had to bend the back to place the bow properly, so my teacher suggested lengthening the pin.

Seems to me there's an uneasy compromise usually struck between pizz and arco pin lengths, something I haven't seen much talked about. I've never been as comfortable with pizz or the bass for that matter since I lengthened that pin. For me it's nearly a good enough reason to drop arco (heresy again ).

@ dougal, thanks for those instructions. Still think I might give it a shot.

On the subject of Rabbath, as a beginner it's been a revelation. I now regret the time I spent on Simandl. I could have moved much more quickly to playing my band tunes if I'd gone to Rabbath straight away. I do, though, use an extra position - thumb at A on the G string (whatever Simandl number that is), for the stretchiest stuff. My hands just aren't big enough to cope from Rabbath's first position. But the extra position is easy to find, and with pivoting covers everything just dandy.

And as Jennifer pointed out, thumb position with Rabbath is not at all scary; it's just part of everything else. From a beginner's point of view, it means you can play three-octave scales from the start. That's a big confidence booster.

Edited April 4, 2011 by fatback

[Gareth Hughes]

Yep, Slava Publishing is where I got mine. But you don't need to go to such extremes - the one you get from there is just a bent bit of steel with a rubber tip, not an actual endpin with a threaded tip. They suggest a 45 degree angle, which I feel is a bit much unless you're leaning it back exactly like Rabbath. Using mine the bass is more like when I'm sitting down - it's still to the side of me, just leaning in more.

One solution to try before you get your own endpin bent is to go to a steel works - where they make such things are fences, gates, etc (I handily have one here within walking distance) and try out something from there - such as an iron rod of similar dimensions. The iron isn't as strong as steel but it's plenty strong to take the weight of the bass.

I recently took a new endpin (because it has a threaded tip for a good rubber foot I got for it) and got it bent rather than welded to the angle I wanted. Just brought in the old one and took the angle from that. They had a quite scary - made for Mafia torture scenes - bit of machinery that bent the steel like it was rubber.

Yes, you need to have a flat surface to stop the pin rotating. I did this with an iron file I happened to have from my Grandad, but I also had it done on an iron rod at the steel works. Theirs is the quicker way I'd suggest if you go with the steel works way to just get it bent first - take it home and experiment with just where you have it placed in relation to the angle it exits the body (if that makes sense). The pin will hold enough for you to practice with without rotating. Then once you've settled on that take it back to get a flat bit grinded at that spot.

Apologies if this isn't very clear - my 2 year old is wanting up from his afternoon nap and I'm ignoring him