Rabbath v Simandl

[Bilbo]

Not sure if I can see the wood for the trees. I have Simandl book 1 and 2 but am not sure which source I can acces in relation to the Rabbath method you are discussing. Is there a link to any books or dvds on the Rabbath method? Trouble is I can' t open the links on here whilst I am in work.

[endorka]

Thanks for the info Hector, I'm going to order the Vance books 2 & 3. If it ain't broke don't fix it!

Vance book 1 so far consists mainly of simple folk melodies and nursery rhymes played in the positions. I'm more than halfway through, and while there has been some shifting, there have been no pivots yet. It makes use of the open strings and natural harmonics as part of the melodies to help keep you in tune.

I am finding it very useful because I am trying to "reboot" my double bass technique from first principles, and also because the relatively simple left hand work is allowing me to focus on bow technique, articulation, string crossing, dymanics and so on. I am really enjoying spending time working on how to make tunes such as "Lightly Row" more musical and expressive. It certainly beats trying to do this kind of thing exclusively with scales.

From what you have said though, I expect you would find it too elementary. If you teach or plan to teach double bass however, it may be worth investing in.

Jennifer

[fatback]

[quote name='endorka' post='1188061' date='Apr 4 2011, 06:08 PM']Vance book 1 so far consists mainly of simple folk melodies and nursery rhymes played in the positions. I'm more than halfway through, and while there has been some shifting, there have been no pivots yet. It makes use of the open strings and natural harmonics as part of the melodies to help keep you in tune.

Jennifer[/quote]

I have to say from a publishing point of view Vance is a disgrace though. Pictures that look like photocopies and, from a beginner's point of view, very poor text. What people get away with in music teaching amazes me.

Rant over.

[endorka]

[quote name='fatback' post='1188384' date='Apr 4 2011, 09:42 PM']I have to say from a publishing point of view Vance is a disgrace though. Pictures that look like photocopies and, from a beginner's point of view, very poor text. What people get away with in music teaching amazes me.[/quote]

The quality of the photos is variable in my copy; the photos on pages 6-9 seem too bright, the contrast is borderline, and false contours in the shades of grey are evident. The photos on p15 appear poorer. Nonetheless, they are all sufficient for the purpose of showing what needs to be shown.

The print quality of music and text seems very good to me, although if you were referring to the content of the text, that is admittedly sparse. On the other hand, there is no way a beginner could attempt the material in this book without a tutor's guidance, so I am assuming that the text is more for reference and guidance of the tutor than the student. This is commonplace in teaching methods for the double bass.

One of my main criticisms of the book is that I think it should have more photos of the other positions; only 1st, 3rd and 4th position are shown in the book, but there is music containing all 6 positions.

Jennifer

Edited April 4, 2011 by endorka

[fatback]

[quote name='endorka' post='1188472' date='Apr 4 2011, 10:55 PM']The quality of the photos is variable in my copy; the photos on pages 6-9 seem too bright, the contrast is borderline, and false contours in the shades of grey are evident. The photos on p15 appear poorer. Nonetheless, they are all sufficient for the purpose of showing what needs to be shown.

The print quality of music and text seems very good to me, although if you were referring to the content of the text, that is admittedly sparse. On the other hand, there is no way a beginner could attempt the material in this book without a tutor's guidance, so I am assuming that the text is more for reference and guidance of the tutor than the student. This is commonplace in teaching methods for the double bass.

One of my main criticisms of the book is that I think it should have more photos of the other positions; only 1st, 3rd and 4th position are shown in the book, but there is music containing all 6 positions.

Jennifer[/quote]

I did mean the content, and I understand what you mean about a teacher, but it comes across as just lazy.

It's not as if these books are cheap. And if you compare it to, say, Rufus Reid's book, it's awful. It's as if these things are written on a wet afternoon.

I know, I'm being grumpy again.

Edited April 4, 2011 by fatback

[endorka]

Our difference in opinion is fascinating, and I wonder if it would be illuminating to pursue it further?

If you are referring to Rufus Reid's "Evolving Bassist" book, I have that too. And while the text is a little better in it, it is certainly not sufficient to get a complete beginner using the bow properly. And I think therein lies the rub; Rufus Reid's book is primarily a jazz method, and therefore the audience will be largely pizzicato based, and presumably older players already with some experience.

From what I recall, the Reid book starts off with a bunch of open string bowing exercises primarily with the goal of improving your string crossings. It is an exercise with some utility, but is incredibly tedious and not musically inspiring at all. The next significant part involves playing chromatic notes all over the fingerboard in all the positions; again it is useful, but you have to take a "I'll do this because it is good for me in the long run" approach.

On the other hand, the Vance book starts with tunes that will be familiar to kids, that they can get some musical enjoyment from right away. It is geared towards classical training and the use of the bow, and there is simply no way a beginner will be able to learn how to use a bow properly without the guidance of a teacher. There are just too many variables and an almost infinite amount of ways to do it incorrectly, but very few ways to do it well. It is my conjecture that because of this, and that in classical education circles the tutor/student relationship is assumed, classical method books for the beginner will not even attempt a "teach yourself" approach. It would be an exercise in futility.

I think what I am trying to say is that I remain unconvinced that the Vance vs. Reid book comparison is a valid one. A more valid comparison might be Simandl book one and Vance, and they both contain badly reproduced photographs and sparse text, I suspect for the reasons detailed above.

Jennifer

[fatback]

I see what you mean there. In content, Simandl and Vance are the comparison.

But I was thinking more of the production values in publishing terms, and the care taken with the text and pictures. Also the attention paid to any kind of sound teaching principles in the way the material is organised.

Even if the book is for use with a teacher, it's pretty poor stuff at the price.

[endorka]

[quote name='fatback' post='1189951' date='Apr 6 2011, 12:10 AM']But I was thinking more of the production values in publishing terms, and the care taken with the text and pictures.[/quote]

I think we are in agreement about the pictures - they could certainly be clearer. In the photos of 4th position, for example, it is not clear whether the players arm is resting on the body of the instrument or not.

[quote]Also the attention paid to any kind of sound teaching principles in the way the material is organised.
...
Even if the book is for use with a teacher, it's pretty poor stuff at the price.[/quote]

Here I must disagree. While I have not completed the book yet, thus far the organisation of the material has been excellent. The pieces get only progressively more advanced, and there have been no sudden leaps of difficulty that leave one perplexed and/or demoralised. The use of natural harmonics as part of the pieces will help the student develop good tuning even if they are not playing along with an instrument that gives a reference pitch such as a piano. The use of well known melodies will also help with this because most people know how they should sound. The same cannot be said for the chromatic exercises at the start of Reid's book, or the atonal pieces in Simandl.

All of the fingerboard - the lower positions, neck heel, and thumb position are presented as equal in difficulty, and to mind this approach is genius. Up 'til now students have worried themselves sick over playing in the high positions, and here you have beginners playing melodies there almost immediately. On the double bass! This is revolutionary stuff!

That there is no actual material covering how to play the instrument in terms of bow strokes etc. is (I suggest) a feature rather than a bug. For classical training the assumption is that you will have a tutor showing you this stuff; it is too complex and tailored to the individual student to describe in a book alone.

This book has broken the "block" I had about playing in thumb position, and it did so almost overnight. For £13, less than the cost of a half hour lesson, I'd say it was very good value for money.

I still find our difference of opinion on the content puzzling; it's almost as if we are referring to different books :-/

Jennifer

[fatback]

[quote name='endorka' post='1189986' date='Apr 6 2011, 01:32 AM']I still find our difference of opinion on the content puzzling; it's almost as if we are referring to different books :-/

Jennifer[/quote]

The strength of my reaction was provoked mainly by the awful picture quality. I find it hard to accept being sold something as bad as that. Is their content so marvelous that they don't have to care?

As for the content, we are seeing it in different ways, that's true. As you say, the book is for teachers to use with kids. Vance gives a structured series of exercises, and I understand what you mean about the content in that sense being good. But otherwise you get very little. You said yourself they didn't even give pictures of some positions.

I reckon there's a real opportunity here for an advanced player (maybe one of you guys ) to write a book on Rabbath for players of all levels who want to understand and learn the method. What beginners like me need is a good explanation of the approach, some useful pictures, and exercises that use text to help get me over the tricky bits and to explain why some things are the way they are.

Above all it should be a book designed or self-tuition; I doubt many teachers use the method, so we're going to be on our own.

Any takers?

[Mike]

Just to bump this thread, after starting with Simandl I have picked up the Vance books (not realising it is Rabbath based) and have been interested in this discussion. I'm a little unclear on the Rabbath positions and I've found the Vance book woefully poor in explaining them. Still, I shall persevere!

How are you getting on with Vance, Jennifer?

[jakenewmanbass]

Jennifer I just read your comment about not being strong in thumb position.
Check out evolving upwards by Rufus Reid, it's brilliant.

[endorka]

[quote name='Mike' post='1270594' date='Jun 15 2011, 08:08 PM']How are you getting on with Vance, Jennifer?[/quote]

Hi Mike,

For the last couple of months I have been focusing on bass guitar so I'm afraid I had to put the Vance on ice. I've quite a bit of work on the double bass coming up, however, so I'm back into it now. Still really enjoying it and finding it useful :-)

Will keep you all up to date as I slowly progress through the books.

Jennifer

[endorka]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='1270615' date='Jun 15 2011, 08:22 PM']Jennifer I just read your comment about not being strong in thumb position.
Check out evolving upwards by Rufus Reid, it's brilliant.[/quote]

I'll check that out Jake, thanks for the reference.

Jennifer

[oggiesnr]

This thread has been a fascinating read for someone just starting DB.

I've just bought the Simandl book having looked at other options. One of my reasons for this is because he doesn't use tunes for exercises. Whilst I can sort of read treble clef I'm an old folkie so I'm used to looking at a piece, going "that's a reel so it goes like.." and then only read pitch rather than note values. I've found that on bass if I use a tune I'm likely to know then I use that knowledge rather than reading the music. The fact that I can't do that with his exercises is a bonus. Hopefully my reading will improve soon

Because of my job I have a lot of time when I'm only keeping an eye on the stall so I've been "visualising" the exercises, air fingering with the left hand and tapping rythm with the right. Obviously can't do the intonation but means that when I'm practising I'm part way there.

Anyway, I'm having fun.

Steve

[sarah thomas]

[quote name='endorka' timestamp='1301963276' post='1188560']

From what I recall, the Reid book starts off with a bunch of open string bowing exercises primarily with the goal of improving your string crossings.
[/quote]

I'm working from this book at the moment and just want to say that the fourteen pages of open strings exercises are part of a chapter entitled 'Develolping a Great Sound' and that is the goal. The exercises can be played on an upright, an electric, pizz or arco. Any or all. You would need some facility with a bow - like having a lesson with a teacher first - to get much out of bowing them. They develop your sound - and after playing bunches of semiquavers and quavers against the metronome, I'd say they develop your timing too.

It's horses for courses, and the Reid book really suits me. It would be tedious on its own but used as daily exercises combined with learning tunes, it's great.

[fatback]

Great for begining reading too, as it's rhythms but only four notes to worry about..

[fatgoogle]

Just started watching these, theres 5 video's were he talks about his technique. Ive only just started watching but it seems interesting.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy-03jH_mrE&feature=related[/media]

Also he does talk about playing and learning and inspiring/motivating himself to play and improve. Id better be off to do some practice.

Edited May 14, 2012 by fatgoogle

[Beedster]

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1298485329' post='1138965']

Shoot me for this, but it also seems vastly more musical, in that moving between keys is so much more natural.

My teacher is unlikely to wear anything but Simandl, so no doubt I'll carry on with that, but I'm tempted to be sneaky and privately work on combining Simandl (lowest positions) with Rabbath for the rest. Problem is, it may screw up my progress with reading.


[/quote]

Just came to this thread. The above comment re your teacher seems odd; should this be something you negotiate and agree as opposed to something s/he dictates, especially given your positivity re the new method?

[fatback]

Fair point, Beedster, and I had meant no criticism whatsoever of the excellent teacher concerned, but I went my own way, and I'm very glad I did.

I abandoned Simandl, postponed the bow and progressed many times faster than I would have with the traditional methods (in my opinion of course .

I'm not suggesting that would suit all beginners, but if you're an electric bassist who used pivoting, Rabbath is very liberating. If you don't mean to play classical and bowing isn't a pressing need, then postponing the bow follows the sound learning principle of separating out components of a task rather than trying to master several things at once. I've found that the common advice to bow for the sake of intonation doesn't hold if you have a decent ear from playing fretless, and in any case Rabbath minimises intonation problems by minimising arm movement. The exception for me is in thumb position where the bow helps hear intonation, so I'm working at that.

I guess I both suffered from (and benefited from) an extreme intolerance for 'traditional' methods not based on a rationale I can understand. Rabbath explains what he does (although he admits his early method text was too much of a 'half-way house' to make sense. Pity he doesn't have a current method book). Simandl is very 19th c. Like a scientist who can't see beyond cataloging things.

I'm going to get into trouble again now, I know it.

Edited June 8, 2012 by fatback

[Beedster]

Very interesting and thanks for the reply, I'm going to take a look over the weekend. Good thread

C

[FLoydElgar]

I like this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgMKftB_aOM&list=UU04CxQaCWum7cxNuZe3ypEQ&index=21
What method do you think it is?!