So I spend all this time, effort and cash...

[gjones]

[quote name='BigAlonBass' post='1143216' date='Feb 27 2011, 12:36 PM']The first thing you have to realise as a Bass Player is that NOBODY ELSE CARES what you sound like. As far as Sound Engineers are concerned, YOU DON'T COUNT as far as the overall sound goes. As has been mentioned before, if you aren't there for the Final Mix, and are willing to fight every inch of the way to get 'your' sound out on the recording, nobody else gives a monkey's toss. Argue with me all you want, but 99.9% of Engineers will give you the 'wooly duvet' sound, unless you are prepared to push every inch of the way until someone listens.[/quote]

Sad but true.

Most engineers AND your fellow band members are probably totally unaware what a 'good' bass sound can add to a mix. You need to be there at mixdown and be assertive if you don't want to end up with the dreaded 'woolly tone'.

Saying that, I had to miss my bands final album mixdown today (for various tedious social obligation reasons) and am 100% convinced my fellow band members will take the opportunity to make my bass sound like rice pudding.

[Michaelg]

tell the engineer asap, preferably show him bass sounds you would ideally like to have.

[dangerboy]

I've started engineering bands. I don't want to be known as a particularly amazing engineer, just as the person you should call if you have an interesting bass sound and want to keep it that way.

It was because one band I was in mixed me out of the recordings completely (to make more 'space' for the doubled guitar).

Edited February 28, 2011 by dangerboy

[Rich]

Oh how I remember having an altercation many years ago with a studio engineer... Heard him EQing the hell out of my Wal's sound on the track i'd put down, asked him what he was doing and he replied "I was trying to get a sort of Ricky sound on it...". I politely informed him that if i'd wanted it to sound like a Ricky, guess what? i'd have used a feckin' Ricky in the first place, and so would he please mind leaving my tone alone thank you very much. Arse.

[dan2112]

I'm quite lucky in my band, the guitarist and drummer both appreciate good bass tones and get quite annoyed when the bass is buried under a thick blanket which is quite rare to hear from a guitarist Even goes as far as...'use the jazz on this song, it'll sound great! which again is mental to hear a guitarist say.

[Muzz]

Thanks for the responses guys (and Jennifer) - I appreciate it.

OK, to clarify a few bits: I'd been surprised and disappointed with the sound, because I'd been so happy with the results of the tracking days (a mix of DI and mike'd cab) sound-wise. It'd been a GAS-reducing result to hear the bass sit in the band mix sounding pretty much as I'd imagined in my head. All through the rough mixing while we were tracking everything else, there it was, very nice indeed. Come the final mixing days, due to serious family illness I was backwards and forwards to hospital and so I missed out on being there (ironic in itself, as I'd been there for 8 days AFTER I'd finished tracking the bass parts, just to show willing, make brews and take the mick out of the drummer for struggling to record tambourine in time) and the bass tone changed dramatically. Listening again (sorry I can't post anything yet, but the singer, who's the main songwriter wants it all under wraps until it's done) and I can hear traces of the old sound, but it's definitely been duveted*.

Anyway, the good news is we're having a sit-down this week to review the results so far (7 out of 12/13 tracks are 'complete', so it's an ongoing process) so there's a forum for me to raise the issue. It's not just me obsessing about 'my tone', though - I genuinely think at least some of the songs are poorer overall for the wooly bass. We've also got the option of playing around at the mastering stage, so maybe it won't be as expensive as I'm fearing.

Finger crossed.

Cheers,

Muzz


* Is this a word? I think not. Anyway.

[chris_b]

Did the engineer use both bass tracks that you put down? If you're only hearing one track you'll only be hearing half of "your" sound.

Have you got "your" sound on a CD that you could take in and play the guy? It might be easier to say "that's what I want to sound like on the finished record".

[lemmywinks]

[quote name='BigAlonBass' post='1143216' date='Feb 27 2011, 12:36 PM']As a Bass Player who also does P.A. Hire and Engineering, I've lost count of the number of times I could have been legless, when fellow Bass Players have wanted to buy me Beer after a Gig, because I got 'their sound' front-of house. Even other Band Members, Audience members and even Management have asked me what I had done differently, because "the whole Band sounded better than last time." Until the General Music Community (and Joe Public) realises exactly what difference a decent Bass sound makes, you'll just have to get on with it.[/quote]


In my last band most of the engineering was done by our guitarist who was a professional AV fella and an ex-bass player who loved Stevie Wonder songs. Suprisingly i never had a problem with getting a good FOH bass sound!

It actually pains me to see bands sounding cr@p live when there's an engineer there, the last few bands i've seen at the only decent venue in my town have all sounded either incomprehensibly muddy or weak and bass-light. What's the point in paying somebody to engineer a gig if they have such a poor understanding of what makes a good live mix?

[Muzz]

As far as I'm aware he used both tracks of the bass - as I say, the sound was there in what I'd assumed was its finished state for days and days of tracking/mixing, it's only in the final mix that he's flung the wool over it. It sounds like he got to the final mix and paid attention to the bass sound for the first time and said "Oooh, that's not fluffy enough...how did I miss that?"

[mrtcat]

My best mate is an engineer. He's done some really big name hard rock / metal bands in the last 5 yrs and has a great reputation in the industry and is flat out 365 days a year. To my ear he destroys the bass every time and he firmly believes it should present but barely noticeable. He always puts really heavy strings on the basses he's recording as he says it needs to be a dull low sound that sits at the back of the mix.

I would never let him record me cos as a bass player i hate his approach and I can hardly ever pick out the bass on his stuff. Lots of the younger engineers seem to go this way especially with rock and metal. Might be worth seeing what your engineers philosophy is?

[menolikeslap]

Not having any recording experience (bedroom bass player), I'd have to say: You are the expert on bass sound, so you should at least have some say on how the product sounds in terms of bass. You don't need to be elitist about it, but make clear what you want.

[pandathe3]

+1 to no one cares!

Because, really no one cares apart from yourself! (or us, and the few engineers that play bass or the few guitarist in a 3 piece)

Id go and complain alot, not aggressively, but pushy like a guitarist. When he asks, tell him you want more than mud and a bit of attack in certain sounds, find an uppermid freq that works best and cut through the most. Done

[Muzz]

I like that new similie: "pushy like a guitarist"...should be in the OED

[51m0n]

First point, a lot of engineers really do care. No really.

They care about the entire mix, not the bass or the guitar, or the drums alone.

OK, they concentrate on the lead vocal, and the song, that is utterly sacrosanct, but the rest is of very equal footing.

However, certain genres and lineups demand more or less space is available for the bass, or the guitar ( a lot of funk has guitar so neutered with eq it sounds like a triangle, a lot of metal has the same approach to the bass, Metallica in the Newstead era anyone?)

You cant escape this, its what the punters are expecting, its what the band are expecting, its what the sound engineer is expecting.

If you have a real need to hear a certain bass soud you have to be there to fight your corner, or the simple fact is the sound will become closer to the approved norm for that genre.

What you can not do is take the bass of fthe track and replace it with how ot sounded before. It doesnt work like that, mixing is really a lot harder than that to do, a lot of the interplay within the instrumentation is very finely tuned frequency wise, the transient response of the different instruments is (should be) finely matched up with compressors etc etc.

Of course, if you have a result you hate, then you absolutely need to say something, as soon as you can. It will bug you forever otherwise. But dont expect a 5 minute job to fix it, any change to bring more top in from the bass is going to effect the guitars, the kick, the snare, the hats and most importantly the vocals. Which is why the rest of the band as one will jump up and down and say "I cant hear me now!" and want it turned back. I'm afraid the horse has bolted on this one.

I would say though, do not make the mistake of blaming the engineer, the rest of the band were there, and they called the shots, he just facilitated the result they wanted, if they had said make the bass more prominent, no go on give it more presence, he would have. Its dead easy to do.They obviously didnt. Of course if he had then their parts would have had to take more of a back seat....

Edited February 28, 2011 by 51m0n

[BigRedX]

It's the producer's job to look at the big picture sound-wise, something that the individual musicians who can be mostly concerned with their own instrument don't always see. It can be a tricky balancing act to make sure that sonically all the instruments have their own space and to avoid the "everything louder than everything else" syndrome.

It's unfortunately that you were unable to attend the mixing sessions so far, and therefore you haven't been able to fight your corner. Did you get a rough mix of the tracks after the initial tracking sessions and was the bass sound how you wanted it then? If there are still mixing of other tracks to be done make sure that you make your views heard, and then maybe it will be possible to revisit the other tracks later. I always work in three stages. Tracking followed by a very quick mix (basically all the faders up so you can hear all the recorded tracks). That will be followed at least a wek later by a proper mixing session, and then after another week a final mix to address anything that isn't quite right.

However as I said earlier without hearing the actual recordings in question it's all simply idle speculation on our part.

[Wil]

I think when you listen to a band mix you have to take your "bass player" hat off and listen to the mix in the context of your target audience. The important thing is that the mix sounds good, and sometimes that can mean the bass sits lower than you yourself would put it. Providing the song as a whole sounds good and the bass isn't [i]totally[/i] inaudible, I'm generally happy.

[MB1]

MB1.
Would mean more time ,effort and cash to correct this one!.
....Not being there! can prove costly!

[ironside1966]

I use a pod most of the time and it works fine after I realized two things, don’t use presets as they are overcooked, find an amp model you like that’s treat as you would the real thing.
The sounds that are great in isolation often sound s*** in the context of a mix and the insipid ones work a treat.
I agree that a lot of the lower budget recording and some musical styles tend to lose the bass from the mix. But you do need to be objective about it. Make sure that before you go into a studio you listen to their work, and then decide do you want something that’s sounds like the band playing live or do you want something that sounds like a record.

[mike257]

[quote name='Wil' post='1144312' date='Feb 28 2011, 11:41 AM']I think when you listen to a band mix you have to take your "bass player" hat off and listen to the mix in the context of your target audience. The important thing is that the mix sounds good, and sometimes that can mean the bass sits lower than you yourself would put it. Providing the song as a whole sounds good and the bass isn't [i]totally[/i] inaudible, I'm generally happy.[/quote]

This.

[Lozz196]

Yes, sometimes less can be better.

My old band had our guitarist do a recording of us, and on the final mixes, the song I like best is the one where the bass isn`t so prominent as on the others, as it sounds more in context with the whole band.