Locking in with the Kick Drum ..... What's that all about then

[hairyhatman]

Bass Brothers and Sisters

I keep hearing about our duty to 'lock in with the kick'. What does this mean? Surely its not to try to play on each kick. That's impossible knowing the drummers I play with.

Playing quarters under the kick beats is downright dull and they might as well run some keyboard loops and let you go to the bar.

I'm thinking its to lock in on the [i]predominant [/i]beat in the bar (e.g. the 1 for funk). Is this what they mean?

What really p***es me off is when the Guitarist tells you to 'lock in with the kick' .... but then they can't explain what that means.

What am I missing? Please enlighten me.

Yours

Flummoxed of Surrey

[Thunderthumbs]

[quote name='hairyhatman' post='131060' date='Jan 31 2008, 12:40 AM']That's impossible knowing the drummers I play with.[/quote]
There's one issue.....[b]really[/b] knowing the drummer.

I think ultimately, once you both understand how and when each other plays certain notes/rhythms, it just all fits into place on its own.

I know that doesn't really answer your question per se, but hopefully you know what I mean!

[Dood]

Well.. yeah thats pretty much it. As you say, it's not necessarily locking in with every kick beat... Especially if you have a drummer who can't seem to play the same thing twice lol.. Makes life difficult.

However, knowing your drummer is a good thing. You are aiming to feel the pulse in the music. what is moving it forward? Pounding triplets? an 8th note disco feel? a lazy shuffle? the phrase 'get into the groove' applies here.. long before you even play a note. Have a good listen and see where it takes you.

I was just listening to 'surrounded' by Dream Theater.. has a wicked 9/8 groove ... in the intro.. but the bass only plays a G note on the kick drum.. but the groove also applies between those bass notes too on the rest of the kit.. Works for me!

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='hairyhatman' post='131060' date='Jan 31 2008, 12:40 AM']I keep hearing about our duty to 'lock in with the kick'. What does this mean? Surely its not to try to play on each kick. That's impossible knowing the drummers I play with.[/quote]

You need to get to know those drummers better.. or sack 'em.

It's doesn't have to be as clinical as 'one note / one kick', but you have to make the notes on the kick really count.

Listen to lots of Led Zeppelin.

Then again, depending on what music you're playing, it could be that none of this matters.

[jakenewmanbass]

In my mind locking in with the kick is about sharing space in the music, as you are both producing a similar frequency sound, often together, so its good to marry them up. If you aim to allow the percussion of the kick sound to be the absolute front point of your note, ('cos the drum envelope obviously closes almost instantly) then the developement of your note however short takes place after the drum.
If you can achieve this with a good degree of consistency it will sound great.
If you can achieve this with near perfect consistency then with the right moves you could end up being a very highly paid player.
Its almost a science but with an enourmous amount of feel chucked in
Jake

Edited February 1, 2008 by jakesbass

[bass_ferret]

It is about keeping in time. Ive seen a few bands with bass players that have got all the chops but cos they dont play in time with the drums it sounds sh*t.

[daflewis]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='131129' date='Jan 31 2008, 09:23 AM']In my mind locking in with the kick is about sharing space in the music, as you are both producing a similar frequency sound, often together, so its good to marry them up. If you aim to allow the percussion of the kick sound to be the absolute front point of your note, ('cos the drum envelope obviously closes almost instantly) then the developement of your note however short takes place after the drum.
If you can achieve this with a good degree of consistency it will sound great.
If you can achieve this with near perfect consistency then with the right moves you could end up being a very highly payed player.
Its almost a science but with an enourmous amount of feel chucked in
Jake[/quote]

+1 for that and, if i may say, very nicely put too!

another way to look at it is that all drummers "place" things differently in the bar - it's what gives different drummers a different feel - (perhaps most famously Steve Gadd's lovely "late" snare back beat) try listening to "Chuck e's in love" by Ricky Lee Jones

but if you tried to place the "one" say, with the kick and your 16ths with a pushy high hat and play 2 & 4 with a late snare it's gonna end up sounding a bit of a mess so the idea is that you take your time more from the kick and not bits of everything....

now i'm going to qualify that statement because different styles require a different approach- it's stays pretty true for styles with fairly straightforward basslines like rock and latin, however if you're a funk 16th note man then, of course, the high hat becomes more important and in fact in jazz it's the ride cymbal that you tend to listen to. i think a lot of it is just down to experience and as others have said - really get to know your drummer. :wub: uh... maybe not...

all that said, if you can make your drummers kick and any note you place with it sound like one note you're well on the way!

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='daflewis' post='131280' date='Jan 31 2008, 01:30 PM']+1 for that and, if i may say, very nicely put too!

another way to look at it is that all drummers "place" things differently in the bar - it's what gives different drummers a different feel - (perhaps most famously Steve Gadd's lovely "late" snare back beat) try listening to "Chuck e's in love" by Ricky Lee Jones

but if you tried to place the "one" say, with the kick and your 16ths with a pushy high hat and play 2 & 4 with a late snare it's gonna end up sounding a bit of a mess so the idea is that you take your time more from the kick and not bits of everything....

now i'm going to qualify that statement because different styles require a different approach- it's stays pretty true for styles with fairly straightforward basslines like rock and latin, however if you're a funk 16th note man then, of course, the high hat becomes more important and in fact in jazz it's the ride cymbal that you tend to listen to. i think a lot of it is just down to experience and as others have said - really get to know your drummer. :wub: uh... maybe not...

all that said, if you can make your drummers kick and any note you place with it sound like one note you're well on the way! [/quote]

Of course you may say that I put something nicely , and if I may reciprocate your observations were equally eloquent.
'Chuck E' is one of my favourite rhythm tracks of all time so I'm with you on that.
where Jazz is concerned I was lucky enough to play with Steve Brown quite a lot up in Manchester, his ride cymbal is a joy to get on and I couldn't agree more about 'making it sound like one note'
Jake

[daflewis]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='131360' date='Jan 31 2008, 04:05 PM']Of course you may say that I put something nicely , and if I may reciprocate your observations were equally eloquent.
'Chuck E' is one of my favourite rhythm tracks of all time so I'm with you on that.
where Jazz is concerned I was lucky enough to play with Steve Brown quite a lot up in Manchester, his ride cymbal is a joy to get on and I couldn't agree more about 'making it sound like one note'
Jake[/quote]
i know what you mean about steve, we used to play together quite a bit when we were in college in manchester - a lovely player... i haven't seen him in years...

i don't know if this is strictly kosher - mods please let me know if you have a problem with this... :ph34r:

hairyhatman - in case you don't have it - have a listen
[attachment=5307:01_Chuck..._in_Love.mp3]

Edited January 31, 2008 by daflewis

[hairyhatman]

Hey guys

Plenty for me to think about here. Thanks for chipping in on this.

Jakebass ... especially like that concept that the kick is the front point of the bass note.....

I played with a drummer for a couple of years who tended to slow up on the the tempo as the song progressed, so I got into the bad habit of playing in front of him to drag him along instead of trying to fix the problem at source. I've since left that band and hooked up with a funk trio....... but I still have this tendency to get ahead of the beat.

I guess I have to work on the idea that tempo setting is the drummer's role ... not mine.

Thanks again. Lots of food for thought

Al

[Thunderthumbs]

[quote name='hairyhatman' post='131684' date='Feb 1 2008, 01:18 AM']I guess I have to work on the idea that tempo setting is the drummer's role ... not mine.[/quote]
Absolutely true, and you'll get great service from a drummer who's got good timing, but there are still some drummers who have got quite poor timing. And there are an awful lot who for some strange reason don't see that as being probably [b]the[/b] most important part of their playing.

Any drummers out there....please feel free to correct me.

[chris_b]

[quote name='hairyhatman' post='131060' date='Jan 31 2008, 12:40 AM']I keep hearing about our duty to 'lock in with the kick'. What does this mean? What am I missing? Please enlighten me.[/quote]
It seems to me that this doesn't mean try to play the same beats as the drummer. It is a short-hand for listen. Listen to what the number needs, listen to the drummer, listen to what the rest of the band is doing. Play TOGETHER as a unit not 4 (or however many) individuals. Players in good bands have an invisible link between them that "bad" players don't have, it's called "feel". It is very important for the bass and drums to "fit" or get the "feel" right but guitarists, and all the other guys, have to do it as well.

[SwordRaven]

I can never hear the damn kick drum so I've learned to lock in with the snare more.

Edit: because he's muted it so effectively with an enormous duvet that it barely makes any sound

Edited February 1, 2008 by SwordRaven

[Bilbo]

I guess its about knowing where the kick drum is and constructing your lines congruently around it - some genre's require you to play smack on the same beat as the kick, some ahead or behind and some complete opposing it. Its about knowing your chosen idiom and working with that.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='chris_b' post='131761' date='Feb 1 2008, 09:57 AM']It seems to me that this doesn't mean try to play the same beats as the drummer. It is a short-hand for listen. Listen to what the number needs, listen to the drummer, listen to what the rest of the band is doing. Play TOGETHER as a unit not 4 (or however many) individuals. Players in good bands have an invisible link between them that "bad" players don't have, it's called "feel". It is very important for the bass and drums to "fit" or get the "feel" right but guitarists, and all the other guys, have to do it as well.[/quote]
this of course is generally true, the specific question was 'what is locking in about?' to which there have been several really good answers, but as Chris points out above that is not all you have to do, It involves, as he said, playing the right thing for the group and the music, something which was also mentioned by Bilbo. good advice all around I think.
Jake

[Merton]

I have fun with the drummer in our function band. He has a set "groove" which he nearly ALWAYS defaults back to by the end of every song, no matter what. Prime example is "Time of My Life" from Dirty Dancing. He's written the correct rhythm down for the chorus, but does he stick to it for more than one and a half choruses max? Is the pope a laser-gun toting little green man?! Amazing! So I am always constantly adjusting the groove to slot back into his little foibles or it becomes a big mess, and I really don't think he's aware of it or of what I play at all... Time for a chat with him

[nig]

I always think the bass and drums locking in together is the most important thing a band needs, it frees up time, it frees up other players, it even frees up the bass and drummer to enjoy themselve with a bit of improv and know where everything sits, its not every beat or chop but once you get that connection with your drummer the band goes up a level, in my opinion,

[Merton]

Aye! My originals band is great, the drummer is really easy to play with and lock into. The function band kicks ass too most of the time, it's just certain songs. Generally the newer ones to our set...

[hairyhatman]

Hey guys

Great insight here ... thanks for all the tips.

Off to get intimate with my drummer now

[The Funk]

Got to agree with the guys who talked about locking in with the snare or the hi-hat. Really it's just about locking in with everything the drummer does full-stop, so that the bass and drums work effectively as a rhythm section.

If you keep getting ahead of the beat - or if you think you might just have bad time - then you are letting down everyone else in the band and it's up to you to fix the problem.

If your sense of time is good enough to hear that you are ahead, then you can make sure you keep time well enough to not play ahead (unintentionally) or speed up.

Of course, if you're playing with a drummer with sloppy time, there's not much you can do apart from get a new drummer.

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='hairyhatman' post='131060' date='Jan 31 2008, 12:40 AM']What really p***es me off is when the Guitarist tells you to 'lock in with the kick' .... but then they can't explain what that means.[/quote]

there's your problem - listening to guitarists!

[bass_ferret]

There was another recent thread about playing around the beat that should be read in conjunction with this. Locking in with the kick drum is not the only fruit and this aspect of being a musician is more important than having the chops and is totally under-estimated by bedroom players and you tube chop monsters (male and female).

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='132283' date='Feb 1 2008, 10:52 PM']There was another recent thread about playing around the beat that should be read in conjunction with this. Locking in with the kick drum is not the only fruit and this aspect of being a musician is more important than having the chops and is totally under-estimated by bedroom players and you tube chop monsters (male and female).[/quote]
+1!!

Definitely...

And :

[i]"I always think the bass and drums locking in together is the most important thing a band needs, it frees up time, it frees up other players, it even frees up the bass and drummer to enjoy themselve with a bit of improv and know where everything sits, its not every beat or chop but once you get that connection with your drummer the band goes up a level, in my opinion, "[/i]

Well said Nig!

[jwbassman]

[quote name='hairyhatman' post='131684' date='Feb 1 2008, 02:18 AM']I guess I have to work on the idea that tempo setting is the drummer's role ... not mine.[/quote]

Not sure I agree with this - to my mind this surely a joint responsibility, you are the rhythm section and your are a team. There are times where it will solely be your responsibility to maintain the tempo and others where the drummer needs to take this on...

I've even been told that it IS the bass players job to set and maintain the tempo.

I've played with many drummers, some good, some bad, some indifferent. The main thing I've noticed is that the better the drummer the easier my job is, I think this ultimately comes down to trust (hence the importance of building a relationship with your drummer).

If you can rely on the drummer to be solid it gives you the freedom to create the groove (playing at the front, middle or back of the beat etc) and create a dynamic, if you have to spend all your time maintaining the tempo to provide a solid foundation for the rest of the band there is less scope to add the drive, dynamics, feel etc into your playing. But as mentioned previously, you need to work together and listening is the key

[Lenny B]

My tuppence'orth

The following is all subject to context, but sometimes the bass drum will provide the pulse of a song - people will feel it as an impact beat - to me, locking in doesn't mean only playing with the bass drum, but it means not playing anything that will detract from its power and impact.

As said above, Zep do this brilliantly - "In my time of dying" is my favourite version - check out the live version on the DVD

Depending on who you're playing with, you can't rely on the drummer to follow and fit in with you. You can push and pull the tempo, but you need the drummer to be able to listen and recognise what others are doing around him.

As Jack Bruce said 'the bass player's job is to make the drummer sound good'. The rest of the band will sound better as a result.