Playing live 101 - amps, cabs etc....

[Cieran]

EDIT: removed the questions regarding effects as I felt that I was asking too much in one go. Concentrating on amps and then will tackle effects at a later date

Ok here goes....... I need some help understanding the basics of playing live. I have owned a bass for just over a year - getting the hang of playing it but so far I have only heard it 'plugged in' through a Vox amPlug mini headphone thingy and directly through my laptop. So far so good...... Now I am looking to step up and purchase my very first rig equipment so that I can play live with a few friends of mine. Problem is I have zero experience whatsoever! I have read through the Wiki pages which has made things clearer but I still need some help.

I thought it would be best to summarise my questions so here goes:

1. Can someone explain the difference between amps, cabs, heads & speakers in layman's terms?
2. Out of the above what am I likely to need to start out with - size, brands, specs, any suggestions etc.......? Presumably I don't need anything too big to start out with but eventually I would like to get a full sized rig.
3. I was intending on getting a Zoom pedal as I thought this would be a good way to try out a variety of rigs and effects. Is this a good idea?
4. This question is for a little bit in the future but what type of problems are normally encountered when plugging into house mixer/ pa vs directly into an amp.
5. Anything else I haven't thought of!


Sorry if this seems disjointed but I have done my best to be concise with my confusement! I also understand that there are infinite possibilites - I am simply after a very simple A, B, C type of advice if possible. Essentially I am after the most simple & bare setup that I am ever likely to need.

If it helps with rig selection the bassists and bands I am mainly inspired by/ looking to emulate are:

The Stranglers (JJ Burnell)
The Jam (Bruce Foxton)
The Clash (Paul Simonon)
XTC (Colin Moulding)
Television (Fred Smith)
Talking Heads (Tina Weymouth)
Also....Gang of Four, The Strokes and The Specials.

As always any help, advice, suggestions or pointing in the direction of resources is welcome. I realise that this is not your average straight-foward topic so I appreciate any help in trying to educate me in the wonderful world of bass!

Thanks
Cieran

Edited February 28, 2011 by Cieran

[Salt on your Bass?]

Hi Cieran,

Im pretty layman, perhaps too much so, but i'll give this a go!

1. An amp can either be a pre amp or power amp. Often when talking, amp and head become interchangeable which is where i think confusion arises. A head comprises a pre amp and a power amp in one box. The pre amp shapes the signal, the power amp boosts it to a high level for output to your speakers. You can buy preamps and power amps seperately.

A cab is the box and speaker that makes the noise that your bass and amp have generated. Again, cab and speaker get interchanged a bit. The speaker is simply that - the speaker thats inside the box.

Then of course you can get combos which are an amp (pre and power section) and a cab all in one.

There are of course excetions to the above - but thats it pretty broad brush.

2. Depends what youll be doing. Garge and rehearsal, and gigs to be honest, id start with a 115 (1 15 inch speaker in a box) or a 210 (2 10inch speakers in one box) cab. Id look for an amp around 200 to 300 watts and youll be set for most stuff, at least for a little. Lots of decisions ahead in this field. It'd be useful to know what your plans are - bedroom jams, garage/rehearsal rooms, a giggable set up? In my opinion, you're best off saving up a little more to get that little bit more that you want, rather than trading up all the time, which can become expensive, but it is fun!!

Brands that are good to look at in my opinion are: Ashdown, Hartke, Peavey, ampeg, line 6 (comes loaded with effects). It'd be good to know what sort of budget your working to though as well. Best place for good affordable kit is right here in the classifieds. Best bit of advice that aways pops up on here is try as much as you can before you buy!

3. A multi fx unit is a good call if youre starting out. You can decide what you like/dislike. Have a read through the effects section, as I think theres a sticky or mega thread in there about multieffects which will probably help.

I hope this is useful, I've tried to answer your q's without delving too much into other areas on tangents. I think others may be slightly more eloquant than I am, and may put it better!

Edit: to try and make it sound like sense rather than ramble....

[quote name='Cieran' post='1144107' date='Feb 28 2011, 02:44 AM']EDIT: removed the questions regarding effects as I felt that I was asking too much in one go. Concentrating on amps and then will tackle effects at a later date

Ok here goes....... I need some help understanding the basics of playing live. I have owned a bass for just over a year - getting the hang of playing it but so far I have only heard it 'plugged in' through a Vox amPlug mini headphone thingy and directly through my laptop. So far so good...... Now I am looking to step up and purchase my very first rig equipment so that I can play live with a few friends of mine. Problem is I have zero experience whatsoever! I have read through the Wiki pages which has made things clearer but I still need some help.

I thought it would be best to summarise my questions so here goes:

1. Can someone explain the difference between amps, cabs, heads & speakers in layman's terms?
2. Out of the above what am I likely to need to start out with - size, brands, specs, any suggestions etc.......? Presumably I don't need anything too big to start out with but eventually I would like to get a full sized rig.
3. I was intending on getting a Zoom pedal as I thought this would be a good way to try out a variety of rigs and effects. Is this a good idea?
4. This question is for a little bit in the future but what type of problems are normally encountered when plugging into house mixer/ pa vs directly into an amp.
5. Anything else I haven't thought of!


Sorry if this seems disjointed but I have done my best to be concise with my confusement! I also understand that there are infinite possibilites - I am simply after a very simple A, B, C type of advice if possible. Essentially I am after the most simple & bare setup that I am ever likely to need.

If it helps with rig selection the bassists and bands I am mainly inspired by/ looking to emulate are:

The Stranglers (JJ Burnell)
The Jam (Bruce Foxton)
The Clash (Paul Simonon)
XTC (Colin Moulding)
Television (Fred Smith)
Talking Heads (Tina Weymouth)
Also....Gang of Four, The Strokes and The Specials.

As always any help, advice, suggestions or pointing in the direction of resources is welcome. I realise that this is not your average straight-foward topic so I appreciate any help in trying to educate me in the wonderful world of bass!

Thanks
Cieran[/quote]

Edited February 28, 2011 by Salt on your Bass?

[Lozz196]

With regards to the whole issue there, going from the bassists listed, I would avoid spending any money on effects, and put it to amplification. None of those mentioned are known for their effects, so concentrate on getting the best amp available for now. Effects can come later, if found to be needed.

Having many effects, but an underpowered amp will halt progress and enjoyment in a band environment, as not being able to be heard is no fun.

From my own experience, and of course it depends on the band you`re in, a 2x10 on its own lacks enough power to have that real authoratative bottom end, and a 1x15 on its own lacks the clarity of attack that both JJ Burnell & Bruce Foxton are known for. (I am of course not talking about the higher costing brands here.) However, the 2x10 & 1x15 paired together, they sound great. It of course depends on budget/portability/transport, but one single 4x10 can be just as effective as the 2x10/1x15 combination.

There are some great deals to be had on Basschat - all the brands mentioned in the previous post will easily do what you`re after.

[dannybuoy]

Going by the bands you have listed, I'd go for a used Ashdown ABM combo, it will give you an excellent gritty rock tone without having to rely on pedals. A Sansamp pedal (or the Behringer BDI21 knock off) will be useful too, either as an overdrive/booster, or for providing an amp like sound to the PA should you ever find yourself needing to play without an amp. Get a stage tuner pedal also so you can tune in silence! Best bang for buck are the Ibanez LU-20 or Artec tuners, or spend a bit more for a Korg Pitchblack or TC Polytune.

[fonzoooroo]

You'll get as many opinions as answers with this.

I reckon the big one to start off with is transport. Seriously. If you drive (or don't need to shift your gear around) then you can go crazy, but if you're relying on lifts/public transport, then think small/light!

Best advice I can give is that if you're parting with big money for a single bit of kit, try it first, and make SURE you're happy. If it's used gear that you can sell on for the same money/killer deal etc, it's a different matter!

A mate of mine bought his "definitive" amp when playing in a decent gigging band, and feels he never needs to change... and that's an Ashdown MAG 300 1x15" combo, with a Korg rack mount tuner. He likes it. It suits his bass (active Epiphone 5 string) and playing style. I've tried it, but can't get a sound out of it I like!

My rig's a bit silly, but all falls into the "killer deal" category... the basics of it are: Peavey 2x12" PA cab,(got it free, replaced the speakers) 1000W PA amp (bought at the cash converter for 1/3rd of the new price), Line 6 bass POD (used off ebay - no idea why nobody else put bids on it!) ... there's more, but you get the idea!

The beauty of seperate heads/cabs is you can carry more/less gear to smaller/bigger gigs/practices (assuming you have more than 1head and 1 cab!) and you can upgrade/swap 1 component at a time. With a combo, if you decide you want to change, then it's a big change (though some will run an extension cabinet, if you decide you want to "expand" it)

As mentioned above, leave the Zoom MultiFX for a while - put the money into the amp... it might buy you some extra power or clarity... or another used cab. ... If the players you want to sound like don't use effects, you shouldn't need them... Yet.

[Algae]

Forget about effects. You just want a solid reliable amp that will amplify the tone of your bass. Most of those bands you mentioned the sound is all about which bass and how it's played (hard with a pick). A precision bass of some sort and a good budget amp like an Ashdwon MAG300 or Marshall MB series will do it well and be affordable. I would get a separate head and cab to split the weight into two easier to carry packages rather than a combo. A 210 or 410 cab would sound cool.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Algae

[51m0n]

Another amp possibility is a Hartke LH500, very very good bang for the buck, you wont suddenly find you've run out of power with it either.

Speakers/cabs are a funny old thing. None of those players mentioned are known for a zingy sound, plenty of bite but back then there were no tweeters in cabs, all paper cone presence. This i simportant, since most of todays cabs come with a tweeter, you want to be sure you can turn it (the tweeter) down if you really want to cop their kind of sound.

As for format the world is your oyster, a 115 and a 210, a 212, a 215, a 410, all of these could work, but the difference between two of the same format with different cab (the enclosure itself) design and drivers (the actual speaker unit) even from the same manufacturer can be massive.

The short answer is there is no guaranteed short answer. You need to give us some idea of your budget, or we will all just real off our favourite go to expensive super duper brands that we know are very likely to hit the spot. Many of which will be (extremely) expensive!

If I were going to budget for a full on gigging rig today I would look for at least 400 or 500 for the amp (way more of lightweight was a must), and at least 600 (more like 800) for the cab(s). But that would be a buy it now and change it in a good few years solution (for me). Thats new prices, second hand you can get some real bargains (especially now).

If it were entirely up to me I would get a Barefaced SuperTwelve to go with the LH500, its punchy, loud (very very very loud), easy to transport and sounds great. But I like lightweight cabs, and would rather spend the extra to get one.

Edited February 28, 2011 by 51m0n

[xgsjx]

I agree with the comments above from Lozz & Co, re: forget the FX & spend on amp/cab or combo (tho you can pick up a cheap Zoom BFX 708 for @£20-30 & is a good way to get to know what fx are what. Mines was £26 off ebay & have since given it away).

The only thing I don't really agree on is how much depth you'll get from speaker size. It's really to do with the cab design more than how big a cone is. I find my 2x10 gives more bass than my old 1x15 ever could (tho I'd quite happily play thru 15s). It's all about how much air you can move.
I went down the 2x10 route as it is a very portable rig & if I need more volume with the same sound quality then I can add another 2x10 (tho I've never found a need for this sort of volume as yet).
I'm planning on building a BFM Tuba 24, which is a cab with a single 10" driver (speaker) in it, but is solely for very low frequencies (sub) & adding this to my rig just for the fact that I play DnB style basslines in a folk band.

One thing no one's mentioned is the difference between heads & amps, they're usually the same thing with the exception of a head is normally the pre & power amp all in the one box, where as an amp could also be just a pre amp or power amp (but they usually define it as such & rather than just saying "I got a new amp" they'll say "I got a new pre amp").

Have fun searching these pages & on BC & enjoy the bass!

[51m0n]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1144262' date='Feb 28 2011, 10:55 AM']The only thing I don't really agree on is how much depth you'll get from speaker size. It's really to do with the cab design more than how big a cone is.[/quote]

[size=5]+1[/size] If you take nothiung else away from this thread take that.

Plux's Bergantino HT210 is ever so slightly bigger than his HT115, all else being pretty much equal between the cabs. The 210 goes a bit deeper than the 115. No surprise there.

[indiegrungesound]

IMO in terms of amps, I'll back up everyone else on here to say that Hartke LH500s & Ashdown MAGs are good amps.

The only other thing I'd say is if you are going to be rehearsing and gigging regular, get some attenuating ear plugs to prevent the risk of tinitus and general hearing damage. (Doc's Pro Plugs and Elacins(sic) are what you should be looking for-or go through Specsavers if you have the time & money as they have hearing test specialists for this sort of thing now.)

[Marvin]

I wouldn't bother with the Zoom multi effects pedal. They're good but there are better things you can put your money towards. TBH you'd only get a very crude approximation of what the heads and cabs sound like.

Didn't stop me getting one though

[Cat Burrito]

I'd mainly echo the great advice so far. Forget multi effects looking at your influences. Personally I'd go for a combo amp if starting out (you can upgrade as you progress) and to be fair most of the brands on the market these days are at least half way decent. Look after it & you can flog it on when upgrading.

[Cieran]

Sorry for the late reply all - i've been out all day.

Really, really grateful for all the helpful advice - plenty of food for thought. Just spent the last hour googling all your suggestions and I definitely have a much better understanding of what I am looking for and likely to need.

At present my budget is pretty much non-existent but I should hopefully have enough cash together within 3-6 months which is why I am starting to look into this now. I will definitely take my time before parting with my hard earned cash and make sure I try before i buy! Ideally I would like to forward-plan a bit and get a rig that will be fine for garage/rehearsal rooms for now, but also up to the task of gigging small-medium sized venues in the not too distant future.

From what i can gather it sounds like it might be a good idea to get a 2x10 to begin with and then if and when I find I need more oomph I can always double up. It also seems like I can't go wrong if I went with any amp/cab configuration or combo versions of Ashdown, Hartke or Marshall products as I am guessing these are tried and tested. Portability was also never a consideration but I can see the advantages of lightweight cabs if I can stretch my money a bit further.

I agree that it is best to concentrate on amps before effects but I have the opportunity to get either a Zoom B1x or a Behringer Bass V-Amp for under £40, so I am going to grab one of these now to play with and then concentrate on getting an amp/cab. Which of these 2 is considered better?

Let me pose one more question: If i could choose 1 and only 1 combo or amp/cab setup which is tried and tested and provides good bang for buck what would be recommended?

Once again thanks for all your help with this - I really appreciate it.

Cheers,
Cieran

Edited March 1, 2011 by Cieran

[Lozz196]

Good gear, good value for money, and versatility - Hartke.

[chrismuzz]

My uncle once told me what Hartke stands for...

Horrible American Rubbish That Keeps Exploding

I've tried a lot of Hartke stuff and I can honestly say I have no idea what he does to his gear. it's always been fine to me! Highly recommend their amps

[xgsjx]

They're all decent bits of kit, but none are lightweight (other than the Ashdown superfly, which doesn't get much respect). however, those heavier things can get you a great sound for lesser money.
For lightweight, I'd look at offerings from TC Electronic, Genz Benz, Aguilar & Markbass to start with.

As predicted, I can recommend the Markbass CMD 102p 2x10 combo that I have, but that's not because I have one, it's because prior to getting it I researched just about every combo & amp/cab thing I could find for less than £1k & it ticked every box (& still continues to do so nearly 3 years on).

My best advice is to go & try as many things as you can so you can find out what sort of kit you like.
And, have fun doing so!

[Cieran]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1145221' date='Feb 28 2011, 11:09 PM']They're all decent bits of kit, but none are lightweight (other than the Ashdown superfly, which doesn't get much respect). however, those heavier things can get you a great sound for lesser money.
For lightweight, I'd look at offerings from TC Electronic, Genz Benz, Aguilar & Markbass to start with.

As predicted, I can recommend the Markbass CMD 102p 2x10 combo that I have, but that's not because I have one, it's because prior to getting it I researched just about every combo & amp/cab thing I could find for less than £1k & it ticked every box (& still continues to do so nearly 3 years on).

My best advice is to go & try as many things as you can so you can find out what sort of kit you like.
And, have fun doing so! [/quote]

Thats some useful information about the lightweight options. I will bear that in mind when making my final decision. I was planning on spending approx £1k so I will def check out the Markbass setup that you mentioned.

I guess nothing beats plugging in and trying different rigs out which is quite a difficult task as I have nothing to compare to. That's why I am looking for suggestions that are known to give a decent output and it sounds like Hartke falls in this category.

Will also bear in mind that size doesn't always equate to more depth. I was a unsure about posting this topic originally as I know what a varied subject this is but I am glad I have now - I have a much better understanding of the various options available to me

Edited March 1, 2011 by Cieran

[Lozz196]

Ah, now with 1k budget, things look much nicer. Whilst Hartke/Ashdown/Peavey/Ampeg are all good brands, lightweight isn`t a good word to describe them.

I`ve been very impressed with my TC Electronic Classic 450, so think the TC range is worth looking at. Markbass definately on the list as well. Every time I`ve heard someone play through a Markbass set-up it has sounded great.

And on here, if you`re happy to mix & match brands, you`ll get a great used set-up for 1k.

[alexclaber]

My past articles from Bass Guitar Magazine are here: [url="http://barefacedbass.com/bgm-columns.htm"]http://barefacedbass.com/bgm-columns.htm[/url]

Hopefully they may provide some enlightenment!

[Jamesrt2004]

For a cab, I'm getting a custom zilla 4x12 for 600!! Which is designed for my needs! (scooped mids, very low lows)

Should take a look at some custom cab makers as you can get a bargain which will sound better than any mass produced thing

For a head you could get a decent secondhand lh500/1000 thats built like a tank! For less than 400! Then you have an amazing cab and decent head for under a grand Add a bddi then you're all set for gigging.... For years!

James

[Algae]

Ah ha ! For 1K we don't need to talk budget amps here. For the type of music you are doing I would highly recommend my set up - an Ashdown JJ-500 JJ Burnel signature head and you should still have enough left over for a good cabinet. Check out my review in the Reviews section.

[BluRay]

I can only comment on the Ashdown stuff, as thats what I have - but plus 1 that its likely to be a good fit with the styles you mention. The AMB range is much more meaty than Mag, so worth spending a bit more now, than having to upgade later. Haven't tried the JJ amp - but it would definately be on my hit list. Personally, I've found seperates are generally better for portability, flexability and not having to upgrade all in one go. There seems to be some good pricing here [url="http://www.theacademyofsound.co.uk/Ashdown_Bass_Amplifiers"]http://www.theacademyofsound.co.uk/Ashdown_Bass_Amplifiers[/url] (I'm not on commission :-)
I've got a zoom pedal too - and its ok as a toy but not sure I'd bother with it live.
As for lightweight - well its a consideration, sure, but if it was all about convenience, no one would have drummers. :-)
Running for cover!

[lloydbent]

I play in a band who gig often. we mainly play originals but the covers we do are frequently by the bands you mentioned, and they are also, in the most part, the bassists who inspired me also.

All is use is a Fender Jazz Bass plugged straight into a Hartke HA3500, which can both be got for fairly decent pirces second hand. I use the head through a 2x10 and 1x15 cabs together. It sounds good for me. However punk bassists normally use Precision basses.

Edited March 1, 2011 by lloydbent

[Cieran]

Thanks all once again for the info.

Will def consider both 'regular' and 'lightweight' setups and weigh up (no pun intended) the associated pros and cons. Lots of brand names to check out and look into further so i'm really pleased. As I said I don't have the readies at the moment but at least I can do lots of research before taking the plunge. I'm leaning towards Hartke and Ashdown rigs at the mo - that JJ signature head sounds particularly good.

Jamesrt2004 - thanks for the info but I doubt I will go down the custom route as I wouldn't know where to begin! Scopped mids & lows means absolutely nothing to me - I understand the theory but I have no practical experience hence the reason I am after something tried and tested.

lloydbent - I had already made the precision connection. However I have spent the best part of the last year customising and upgrading a short scale Gretsch G2202 (see my avatar picture). I had never attempted any modding before in my life so I relied on a lot of internet research and the gold folks over at TalkBass (before I was even aware of the existence of BassChat!). It has it's own unique sound but I was using the P-bass tone as a guide for what I wanted. Nearly drove me mad at times but I am really happy with the end result, plus I have learnt a hell of a lot in the process - hey I even know how to solder now!

Edited March 1, 2011 by Cieran

[Algae]

[quote name='Cieran' post='1146501' date='Mar 1 2011, 10:14 PM']Scopped mids & lows means absolutely nothing to me[/quote]

The lower mids are the region between bass and mid , the upper mids are the region between mid and treble. If you only have a three tone controls (bass mid and treble) you will not be able to adjust them on your amp but if you have five knobs or a graphic you can. To get a good growly in ya face p-bass JJ Burnel type sound you need to boost your lower and upper mids whilst keeping the bass mid and treble around neutral - not a scooped sound which will be more like metallica or somebody.