Live Sound

[BigRedX]

If you're really obsessed with having exactly "your" sound for what sounds like essentially pub gigs then the band should employ their own sound engineer.

[ironside1966]

When you work with a band regularly you can get a relationship and work can with them on the sound but if it’s a quick hello and sound check then coming out front giving directions is just a waste of time and very amateurish. If you have any special requirements type them out and hand them to the engineer at the desk.
What is the best use of an engineer’s time getting you instruments sound has you want them for it all to change when the band strikes up and the venues full? Or getting the monitors right making sure you have enough headroom for vocals.

A great sound starts with great arrangements and instruments tone that leave enough sonic space for the all the band to cut through. The problem starts when every musician wants a larger than life sound that eats all the sonic space so they are fighting each other for space and that’s where you have to EQ them to death to get a mix and it is the bands that come out front barking orders that have the latter sound in my experience.
Good engineers with good bands just make the band louder and project better. A good band can more or less mix themselves you don’t need anybody to say turn so and so up because the band does it for you so you just provide help when needed.
I was a pro engineer working many nights a week for over 15 years but on the odd occasion when I gig has a player I never go out front I never tell the engineer what to do even though a lot of the time the engineers a quite you and inexperienced, it’s like a vote of no confidence

Edited March 8, 2011 by ironside1966

[Lozz196]

It always makes me laugh, watching bands say "I want a bit more blah-blah" and concentrate entirely on the monitors for a whole soundcheck.

Whilst it`s great to hear everything, I`ve never been that fussed about the on-stage sound, having done the majority of my gigs without the instruments going through a pa. So I`m happy enough hearing what I usually hear, anything else is a bonus.

What does bother me is sounding good FOH. I usually just take a walk out front, once its all been checked individually, and we`re going through a whole song, more for my own benefit of hearing the band, than checking up on the sound guy, as its fun to hear yr band thru a huge pa. Am yet to hear something I really dislike, in 25 years of gigging.

And I always tell the soundguy after the soundcheck how great it sounded. Praise, when due, never hurts anybody. Its also good for the rest of the band if they know they sound awesome.

Edited March 8, 2011 by Lozz196

[vsmith1]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1152830' date='Mar 7 2011, 07:20 PM']Interesting. I've always assumed that the on-stage sound will never be as good as FOH and that the monitors should really be set-up so that each performer can hear enough of the rest of the band to be able to play their part - not to give the same sort of quality mix as the FOH, which the sound guy then mixes to give the audience the best possible sound.

Thus the band members instruct the sound guy to give them the monitor mix they want, but the FOH sound is his responsibility alone.

Or am I missing something here?[/quote]
I agree.

I'm on bass and all PA duties for our little band. The drums, guitar are not in the main PA. Therefore the drum set the levels that (1) the monitors have to get over and (2) the main FoH levels.

In you are in the same boat, then always leave time to sort [i]your[/i] sound out. A lesson I have learned the hard way.

I have difficulty with my bandmates, most of whom cannot distinguish between the monitor mix and the FoH mix. They also think that the monitor mix should be personal to them. Unfortunately, we don't have a desk that has 5 AUX channels, so we have the inevitable "more of me", "more of me", etc. I do use some reverse psych and sometime turn down AUX feeds, or just turn up the level on the actual monitor. They also keep thinking that the monitor sound is what the audience hear. I keep on explaining but it's not easy as they cannot be on the other side.

The other main thing is setting the gain levels at the start - I always say as loud as you will be. And of course about 75% through the set - there are red peak lights appearing. At that point, keep playing until the end of the song and then tweak.

There are times (usually in rehearsals) when I'm ready to down tools and let them try and sort it.

Edited March 8, 2011 by vsmith1

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Lozz196' post='1153689' date='Mar 8 2011, 12:40 PM']It always makes me laugh, watching bands say "I want a bit more blah-blah" and concentrate entirely on the monitors for a whole soundcheck.[/quote]

I disagree - if we're paying the PA folks, we can spend time getting what we like in the monitors. For a couple of the bands I'm in, a carefully balanced monitor mix is essential.

The FOH is another matter - you can't hear it on the stage, so you can only have limited input.

Of course, I may have completely misunderstood your point. if that's the case, I apologise.

[Ian Savage]

As a musician and engineer, sometimes at the same time, I've taken to using an approach which I first saw done by the guys who used to work the Roadhouse in Birmingham (weird, but lovely men):

1/ Drummer playing at normal gig levels unmic'd, everyone brings up their amps so they can just about hear themselves.

2/ If anyone needs more of anyone else, add it in the monitors (e.g. guitars on opposite sides of the stage)

3/ Bring vocals into the monitors, adjusting e.q. and reverb in wedges to taste / to tame feedback.

Only then should you start looking at the FoH mix, and bring in the mics on the drums if you're using them. USUALLY leads to a group of musicians who can hear everything they need to, and total control over the FoH sound for the guy who's actually hearing it (i.e. the engineer).

At least until the guitarist turns the amp which was set at 'four' during soundcheck up to 'seven' for the gig

[dbass]

[quote name='Ian Savage' post='1153799' date='Mar 8 2011, 01:57 PM']At least until the guitarist turns the amp which was set at 'four' during soundcheck up to 'seven' for the gig [/quote]

*shudders*

Guitarist from my original band is one of the best I've played with but he has little to zero knowledge of stage volumes. It is literally just "set to 10". It doesn't help that they all ignore me when I ask for it to be turned down. Maybe the fact I'm the only one who wears earplugs doesn't help matters but hey ho.

One more rant - WHY ARE METAL GUITARISTS OBSESSED WITH BASS SET TO MAX!!! Same guitarist again - Bass is nearly maxed out all the time. Does my friggin' head in.

Aside from that, best guy you could want to play with!

As far as sound guys go - you get the good ones, you get the bad ones. Telling them what to do doesn't help regarding FOH. Monitor mixes are entirely down to you though and engineers should always be more than willing to help.

[jonsmith]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='1153286' date='Mar 8 2011, 01:39 AM']When you work with a band regularly you can get a relationship and work can with them on the sound but if it’s a quick hello and sound check then coming out front giving directions is just a waste of time and very amateurish. If you have any special requirements type them out and hand them to the engineer at the desk.
What is the best use of an engineer’s time getting you instruments sound has you want them for it all to change when the band strikes up and the venues full? Or getting the monitors right making sure you have enough headroom for vocals.

A great sound starts with great arrangements and instruments tone that leave enough sonic space for the all the band to cut through. The problem starts when every musician wants a larger than life sound that eats all the sonic space so they are fighting each other for space and that’s where you have to EQ them to death to get a mix and it is the bands that come out front barking orders that have the latter sound in my experience.
Good engineers with good bands just make the band louder and project better. A good band can more or less mix themselves you don’t need anybody to say turn so and so up because the band does it for you so you just provide help when needed.
I was a pro engineer working many nights a week for over 15 years but on the odd occasion when I gig has a player I never go out front I never tell the engineer what to do even though a lot of the time the engineers a quite you and inexperienced, it’s like a vote of no confidence[/quote]

I don't see how it's amateurish wanting to present my band to the audience correctly, quite the reverse in fact. Should people care about how they sound to their audience? Would you let someone mix your album and not even listen to the mix before it was pressed?

I don't particularly give a whole load of directions - most engineers get pretty close - but I might explain how we fit together as a bit of guidance if they are a bit off the mark. This tends to be at the end of the soundcheck and normally it's just some slight level tweaks that are requested - if anything is required at all.

I'll ask again of those who think I shouldn't bother, how will a sound engineer know that most of the keyboards in one of my bands need to be pretty up front, while in another of my bands they take more of a background role? Unless someone tells them, he/she won't know and therefore the audience will not be hearing the band the way it is supposed to sound. Yet that to me is the most important thing, that we sound correct to the people who have paid to hear us. I should add that no engineer has ever given the impression that they felt undermined by this, or appeared annoyed. All, without exception, have been happy to engage in dialogue about FOH sound. Perhaps if we were giving a huge list of unreasonable demands it would be different, but really we're asking for their help to get the correct sound across. I don't know the equipment, the room or how it alters with bodies in it - they do and that's the skill and knowledge that makes them invaluable. If they do a great job - and most do - we certainly let them know!

[ironside1966]

Let me try and answer a few of your questions.
To do this you need to understand how a lot of engineers mind works, first if you get the levels right then you are generally not far of a decant balance anyway but that is the last thing on your mind at the time. When the band first strikes up together you quickly reset the levels then it is a time of intense concentration as you focus in on individual frequencies and parts of the sound, listening for the slightest ring, making sure you have enough headroom resetting graphics if needed, listening to individual speakers you get the Idea of it, so you need to subconsciously block other sounds and after a couple of minutes your ears start to deteriorate because of the volume. I am not saying you do this but it has happened to me many times my concentration has been broken by the cry of “can you turn my guitar up”
The second reason is I do not mix in a sound check so how can you tell what the mix is like? Because when the venues full and the band are going for it the sound can completely change, a good example of this is a couple of weeks ago when I did a jazz band, in the sound check it sounded dreadful no clarity no sense of balance but when the band came on stage my gear lit up like a Christmas tree and they sounded great, because I had the good sense to leave things alone if I had tried to correct the mix in the sound check I would have made myself loads of problems. Imagine if that were your band you would have come out and put the whole band on a downer believing that the sound is crap which may have spoiled the performance.
How do we need to know how loud the BV or keys need to be? The same as you if the parts are interesting and play a vital role we can hear this and mix accordingly.
Lastly why is it amateurish? Professional and well gigged bands are used to working with good engineers so they trust them and know for the reasons stated earlier that they are better of onstage playing as they would in a performance concentrating on a workable stage sound because it is easier to fix FOH in a performance then the stage sound.
When you do a sound check and in my world a long sound check is a sign of incompetence, people expect you to get things right quickly so it is never more than one song unless there are problems.

[jonsmith]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='1155314' date='Mar 9 2011, 01:46 PM']...

Lastly why is it amateurish? Professional and well gigged bands are used to working with good engineers so they trust them and know for the reasons stated earlier that they are better of onstage playing as they would in a performance concentrating on a workable stage sound because it is easier to fix FOH in a performance then the stage sound.
When you do a sound check and in my world a long sound check is a sign of incompetence, people expect you to get things right quickly so it is never more than one song unless there are problems.[/quote]

Thanks for the response. I wonder if you think that we are interfering a lot, which is not the case. If you think we shouldn't ever interfere, then I guess we must be amateurish because unfortunately we don't always encounter engineers with as good an ear and an intuitive sense of balance as you. Some have no sympathy/understanding of the music and how it should sound. Although the good ones have tended to ask questions, one or two have made their own erroneous assumptions. On a couple of occasions, we've had engineers who just weren't very good at all, in one case seemingly due to laziness & the other due excessive alcohol consumption. I think we were correct to intervene in those instances, as I don't think it was us that were being amateurish.

Funnily enough, the ones where we had the quickest soundchecks seem to have been the ones where the engineer has got it pretty much spot on, so I see where you are coming from there. I've had instances where everything just worked straight away & I wouldn't have changed a thing. This isn't the case everywhere though, so perhaps amateur engineers sometimes need amateur intervention, in the interests of getting a professional sound.

PS - With DF, we never get away with one song in a soundcheck, thanks to the resonator guitar that almost always poses problems.

PPS - As we have our own PA (for venues without), we often travel with our own engineer. We also do live sound for other people. Once I was most annoyed to see a hand coming in from behind to adjust a fader slightly. It was [url="http://www.linkedin.com/in/benfenner"]this guy's[/url] hand & his son was on stage, so I decided to let him.

Edited March 9, 2011 by jonsmith

[Spike Vincent]

[quote name='Ian Savage' post='1153799' date='Mar 8 2011, 01:57 PM']As a musician and engineer, sometimes at the same time, I've taken to using an approach which I first saw done by the guys who used to work the Roadhouse in Birmingham (weird, but lovely men):

1/ Drummer playing at normal gig levels unmic'd, everyone brings up their amps so they can just about hear themselves.

2/ If anyone needs more of anyone else, add it in the monitors (e.g. guitars on opposite sides of the stage)

3/ Bring vocals into the monitors, adjusting e.q. and reverb in wedges to taste / to tame feedback.

Only then should you start looking at the FoH mix, and bring in the mics on the drums if you're using them. USUALLY leads to a group of musicians who can hear everything they need to, and total control over the FoH sound for the guy who's actually hearing it (i.e. the engineer).

At least until the guitarist turns the amp which was set at 'four' during soundcheck up to 'seven' for the gig [/quote]



This is my usual approach.Best "turn it up to 7" moment I had was when a guitarist decided to move one of the side fills so he could put his combo on it.Oh the feedback...