Dave Vader Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Okay, guitar player (as always) narked me off the other night as he said he hated musicians that go on and on about theory all the time. I would have brushed it off as usual reverse snobbery had it not been over the fact that the keys player asked him if he was playing an f major or an f minor. He said he didn't play by notes and letters, he just knew it was down there on the 1st. Now having spent most of my musical career as a guitar player, I've always been fine with them. Just this one, it occured to me that if you want to play with any other musician that isn't a guitar player a basic understanding of music, certainly notes chords and keys is a necessary, if you only deal in tabs, you will only ever be able to communicate with other guitar players, and even then, not very well or quickly. How can this pleb ever expect to get out of his bedroom and play with other people? Amusingly he mostly tries to ape Van Halen/ Satriani et al, the ultimate in super-duper theory headed guitar players, ho ho ho. Certainly couldn't do originals, or jam with anyone without a bit of help surely? I don't want to start the old Theory vs no theory debate again, and I'm not saying we all need to be Bilbo or Doddy, but come on? Minor and Major?!?!? That stuff IS important. (As it happens I'm always with Bilbo and Doddy in those arguments, but thats by the by) Anyone else come across such blatant muppetry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbayne Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I once jammed with a guitarist. And when I suggested he play a C Am Dm G sequence, his response was "I dont do chords - I,m a note man!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Agreed. A basic musical knowledge is incredibly important, why shun it? It's like shooting yourself in the foot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOD2 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Our keyboard player was quite the opposite. He was entirely self-taught and very effective in the context of the band but didn't know the first thing about music terminology. But what was most annoying to myself and the guitarist was when we'd be trying to change the key of a song to fit the vocals range. He would just press the "transpose" button on his keyboard and start playing away while we'd be trying to mentally transpose the chords in our heads. So we'd shout "what key is this in ?" and he'd respond with"+2" or "-1" or something similar ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechFoo Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I once played with a guitarist who told me "I don't need to learn chords because I'll be solo-ing" Definite emphasis on [b]once[/b] played Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) It is as well for him that he finds a musical outlet for his ignorance. He can't be totally useless as he wouldn't get very far without realising somethings don't work or sound right..??? The only way this can work is if the guy has perfect pitch but I have come across very few of them... But you could also expand this argument to people not knowing the notes on their fretboard...or not being able to recognise gtr chord shapes.. These are all decent helpers in quick communication. Edited March 2, 2011 by JTUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I can't see how you can play properly without a basic knowledge of music theory. I suppose someone will chime in and ask me to define 'properly' - well let's say that I wouldn't be able to get any enjoyment out of my playing if I didn't understand what I was doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) I can't see the problem. I mean, why speak words when waving my arms and pulling a face works just as well. Actually this kind of thing annoys me not so much when someone doesn't know it's a F major or F minor - fair enough we've all got things to learn - but more when they are dismissive and make no effort to pick up the lingo. I can't understand why anyone would not want to know the language of music. Edited March 2, 2011 by EssentialTension Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigster Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 been impressing this on my son who has learnt an amazing amount of covers by tabs with his band - they sound great, but i worry what he understands about keys and chords etc.. i'm no theorist but i have forced myself to appreciate and understand as much as poss the science of music because otherwise you'll end up in a situ where someone wants to jam stuff out and you're clueless.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 [quote name='Jigster' post='1147400' date='Mar 2 2011, 05:40 PM']been impressing this on my son who has learnt an amazing amount of covers by tabs with his band - they sound great, but i worry what he understands about keys and chords etc.. i'm no theorist but i have forced myself to appreciate and understand as much as poss the science of music because otherwise you'll end up in a situ where someone wants to jam stuff out and you're clueless..[/quote] My son has overtaken me on theory now. Not long ago I was explaining it to him but now he's putting me right - after I confused E9 and Emaj9. Have you ever felt pride and embarrassment at the same time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lettsguitars Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 the knowledge of a major and minor is surely a must when discussing arrangements. as i would think is knowing where all the notes are. even if for just for talking each other through riffs and progressions. it would take forever without basic knowledge of the theory behind your instrument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 [quote name='Dave Vader' post='1147351' date='Mar 2 2011, 05:01 PM']had it not been over the fact that the keys player asked him if he was playing an f major or an f minor.[/quote] Theory aside, I'd be concerned that the keyboard player couldn't [i]hear[/i] the difference between a major and a minor (its a pretty fundamental difference in sound), though to be fair it could have been lost in the cacophony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlucas Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Personally i'm getting along fine at the minute with just knowing the notes and their position on the fretboard, i know a bit about 3rd above/below etc but nothing massive, it's just stuff i've picked up from musicians in the past year or so, nothing drastic. In my experience theory is not needed, as long as you know how notes sound in relation to each other Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Rich Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) You could print this out and give it to him: Major = Minor = Sounds like it'd double his musical knowledge! Edited March 2, 2011 by Fat Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 As long as you know what the score is then it doesn't have to be a problem. I’m in a duo with a very good guitarist who is great to play with but he doesn't know how to describe what he's playing in any meaningful way. I just have to follow him until I find out what bass line works against the chords and lines he's playing. My powers of anticipation are pretty good these days! He started in folk clubs, which explains everything! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 [quote name='Count Bassy' post='1147423' date='Mar 2 2011, 06:04 PM']Theory aside, I'd be concerned that the keyboard player couldn't [i]hear[/i] the difference between a major and a minor (its a pretty fundamental difference in sound), though to be fair it could have been lost in the cacophony.[/quote] Fair enough but I've asked the same question - Are you playing major or minor? - when I really meant 'You're playing the wrong chord'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 [quote name='Hobbayne' post='1147368' date='Mar 2 2011, 05:17 PM']I once jammed with a guitarist. And when I suggested he play a C Am Dm G sequence, his response was "I dont do chords - I,m a note man!!"[/quote] that wasn't a guitarist, that was a guy who played notes on a guitar... subtle but important distinction... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 [quote name='Fat Rich' post='1147452' date='Mar 2 2011, 06:36 PM']You could print this out and give it to him: Major = Minor = Sounds like it'd double his musical knowledge![/quote] Brilliant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Fat Rich' post='1147452' date='Mar 2 2011, 06:36 PM']You could print this out and give it to him: Major = Minor = Sounds like it'd double his musical knowledge![/quote] Diminished = 9 = Do they work? Edited March 2, 2011 by EssentialTension Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 [quote name='Dave Vader' post='1147351' date='Mar 2 2011, 05:01 PM']Okay, guitar player (as always) narked me off the other night as he said he hated musicians that go on and on about theory all the time.[/quote] Just the mention of F or Fm is theory in itself. If he hates Musicians for using chord terms, maybe its back to the bedroom on his lonesome me thinks. Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 [quote name='Mlucas' post='1147440' date='Mar 2 2011, 06:16 PM']In my experience theory is not needed, as long as you know how notes sound in relation to each other [/quote] So it is needed then Unless you are just going to be playing the bottom note of the guitar shape with no regard to what it is or how it sounds,a basic understanding is needed. You could play a major third over a minor chord,wince,and hopefully correct it....but why not take away all the guess work when you could play the right note to begin with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Rich Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 [quote name='Doddy' post='1147508' date='Mar 2 2011, 07:00 PM']So it is needed then Unless you are just going to be playing the bottom note of the guitar shape with no regard to what it is or how it sounds,a basic understanding is needed. You could play a major third over a minor chord,wince,and hopefully correct it....but why not take away all the guess work when you could play the right note to begin with?[/quote] asdfiet arlurgasrd airuga girup[o arg ouargsr dgaew9ewo9t g9asejgf a=90 4op#af90aelas agpoa gao'8et9 sgl;asiga rta 'roga rtg'pao rouare ogiar gl;rdg. Fjkau kjahsdf lkasdf lksdfj pr arau a arliug aaosug l; asrokgua ;losie. [i]Edit[/i]: It's like typing by closing your eyes and randomly pressing keys until you've got roughly enough letters on screen in roughly the right places. Then going back and fixing them till they spell out what you were thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Academy Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 [quote name='Fat Rich' post='1147452' date='Mar 2 2011, 06:36 PM']You could print this out and give it to him: Major = Minor = Sounds like it'd double his musical knowledge![/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 [quote name='Fat Rich' post='1147530' date='Mar 2 2011, 07:11 PM'][i]Edit[/i]: It's like typing by closing your eyes and randomly pressing keys until you've got roughly enough letters on screen in roughly the right places. Then going back and fixing them till they spell out what you were thinking.[/quote] Yep but in the case of the OP's Guitarist [Or his Keyboard player], we are talking just two note. A or Ab. [F or Fm] FCUK me! Even Van Gogh would be hard pressed not to hear that. Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 As musicians we communicate through music. Someone who cannot grasp the what the name of the chord they are playing is called is destined to be a solo artist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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