Fat Rich Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' post='1150383' date='Mar 5 2011, 11:03 AM']For me, this debate is not about what is or is not possible but about what is or is nnot advisable. If anyone who has recently started the bass, I would argue that the theory/reading route to be the one that wastes less time in the long run. Everyone who comes to realise this always says the same thhing: 'I wish I had done this earlier'. It is not an instead of playing the tunes you like, it is as well as. If you learn a tune based aroudna dorianm minor and know that is what it is, every other tune that is based on that scale is an open book. I also hold the view that, if you can't articulate what you know, you probably don't know it as well as you think. This is not about whether it is possible to learn without theory. Of course it is. The issue is, is it the best way. I think it isn't and my experience and connections with both theorists and the rest bears this out. Remember, groove playing, rhythm and feel are all part of the theory too and not set apart from it.[/quote] Wading straight into a lot of theory can be off-putting to beginners, it's good to get some instant gratification from learning to play an instrument. But I think once you've got past that stage it's time to start learning properly. I hear plenty of people not prepared to learn theory because they feel it'll make them sound like they've come off a production line / it's a waste of time / it doesn't necessarily make you a better player etc. and in a few cases this can be true. However I've never heard anyone say they've learned to read music, understand chords, scales and modes, harmony etc. but that it was all a waste of time and they didn't get anything out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 [quote name='Fat Rich' post='1150421' date='Mar 5 2011, 11:41 AM']Wading straight into a lot of theory can be off-putting to beginners, it's good to get some instant gratification from learning to play an instrument. But I think once you've got past that stage it's time to start learning properly.[/quote] I've said it before, a young person taking up bass isn't interested in theory 90% of the time, they're interested in just playing their instrument as fast as they can and getting in a band so they can get some girls! I was like this until I was given lessons two or 3 years into playing my instrument. There needs to be that initial emotional connection with your instrument on the most base level before you go about tackling the theoretical side of things with a teen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 [quote name='risingson' post='1150447' date='Mar 5 2011, 12:15 PM']I've said it before, a young person taking up bass isn't interested in theory 90% of the time, they're interested in just playing their instrument as fast as they can and getting in a band so they can get some girls! I was like this until I was given lessons two or 3 years into playing my instrument. There needs to be that initial emotional connection with your instrument on the most base level before you go about tackling the theoretical side of things with a teen.[/quote] There is a way of incorporating the two though that will make it fun and interesting to the student. If a beginner expresses an interest in a certain band,it's usually possible to show them a couple of songs and say 'Both these songs use this scale/arpeggio. How cool is that?',so you are showing them something that they will enjoy,while implying that if they learn the more technical side they will be able to play loads of songs easily. It works pretty much every time. It works with learning to read aswell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 [quote name='Doddy' post='1150535' date='Mar 5 2011, 01:30 PM']There is a way of incorporating the two though that will make it fun and interesting to the student. If a beginner expresses an interest in a certain band,it's usually possible to show them a couple of songs and say 'Both these songs use this scale/arpeggio. How cool is that?',so you are showing them something that they will enjoy,while implying that if they learn the more technical side they will be able to play loads of songs easily. It works pretty much every time. It works with learning to read aswell.[/quote] Wish my teacher had taken this approach. I was initially taught "Little Old Wine Drinker Me" and similar songs. I was listening to bands like Thin Lizzy, Kiss & Deep Purple and very quickly found myself losing interest and just going through the motions. I think this approach would have kept me more interested and would probably have taken my reading a bit more seriously. From memory in those days you very rarely found Rock Music written correctly or accurately for bass. Cheers Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 [quote name='Doddy' post='1150413' date='Mar 5 2011, 11:32 AM']There are a lot of gigs out there where you don't have the luxury of being given the music to listen to ahead of time,and it's for situations like that where knowing all this information becomes vital.[/quote] +1 I'd only class myself as a 'light theorist' but I certainly would find my work drying up pretty fast if I didn't have a rudimentary grasp of why things do/don't work. It gives me the freedom to work with material that I wouldn't be able to without it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 [quote name='Fat Rich' post='1147452' date='Mar 2 2011, 06:36 PM']You could print this out and give it to him: Major = Minor = Sounds like it'd double his musical knowledge![/quote] Happy, sad, that is superb! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurbs Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I am learning the principles around composition and harmony at the moment... and I have to agree with the theorists. Overall it makes you a much better musician, if not directly a better player. My main goal is to play Jazz and to play in that kind of environment you need a very high level of musicianship. The other reason I am learning is a bassist who can read is rarely out of work... I am by no means there, but when you start down the road you quickly realise what you have been missing. You turn from being unconsciously incompetent to consciously incompetent! A secondary benefit is that it is so much easier learning songs by getting the key noted, any significant rhythm changes and the chords down on a lead sheet. It has cut my learning of a song from an entire evening to about 20 minutes. I also believe transitioning on to the DB has been easier given the knowledge and theory I had behind what I am playing and how it all hangs together. I have found I needed to adjust my playing style to suit and I believe this was made simpler because of what I had learnt. Finally... learning and practising the theory allows much greater chance of improvisation, knowing what will sound right in advance without trying it 10 times before hand. This in turn means knocking out songs at rehearsals with 3 or 4 chords in them can actually be quite fun. Something like Mustang Sally is actually only one chord the whole way thorough but you can have so much fun with it providing you stick within the rhythmic and harmonic guidelines. Obviously you have to tone it down for a gig and remember you are not a lead guitar (although I often think a Ned's style lead bass role would be quite fun to get involved with). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellothere Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I am ignorant of theory but in no way try to defend that, I know I need to learn more of the theory side if I ever want to play more than covers and so that's what I'm doing at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 [quote name='hellothere' post='1163396' date='Mar 15 2011, 05:34 PM']I am ignorant of theory but in no way try to defend that, I know I need to learn more of the theory side if I ever want to play more than covers and so that's what I'm doing at the moment.[/quote] I actually think it's working out covers where the theory helps as you have reduced the amount of notes that will be in the song just from the key signature. I'm only a theory/reading novice and have seen places where the odd bum note has been slipping through the net that knowing it was in D Minor for example wouldn't of happened. Someone with good theory and a good ear could and can within reason play anything off the cuff if they know the song in their head, Sure it might not be the right bass line but it would all be in key and time which for your average dep gig would be more than enough if time was very tight IMO/E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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