Argh, my hand...

[hellothere]

I have recently started learning Anesthesia by Cliff Burton, something I know alot of people learn quite early on but it has taken me a while to get round to it. At first I picked it up pretty quick but the past few times I have started getting an ache in my hand. The bets way to describe it inbetween my middle finger and index finger but on the back of my hand, in between what I think are the bones from those two fingers. I have played things similiar to this before and used to play 24/7, where as no I just play initermitently through the evening. So I don't think it is RSI as I understand that taking beaks and not over playing makes it unlikely to happen (which are thigns I am doing.) I am worried that if I carry on playing it could damage my hand in some way and then I wont be able to play anything.

So is it my technique, like my fingering or something? Any ideas what could be causing it? This is the tab I am using...

[url="http://www.bassmasta.net/m/metallica/162264.html"]http://www.bassmasta.net/m/metallica/162264.html[/url]

If I stop playing the ache dulls after around half an hour but returns if I stretch my fingers. Thankyou for any pointers. Obviously ask any questions you might have

N.B I do stretchs with my fingers regularly and warm up before I play anything remotely complex. Also this isn't the kind of ache just from tiring your fingers out, it is in a specific palce and feels nothign like that.

[Evil Undead]

Sounds like it could be an RSI to me. I think you should get it checked by the GP. Maybe it's just tendonitis, but best to be on the safe side

[Bloodaxe]

Which hand? Fretting or plucking?

[hellothere]

[quote name='Bloodaxe' post='1150696' date='Mar 5 2011, 04:36 PM']Which hand? Fretting or plucking?[/quote]

Sorry, obviously something I should have included! My fretting hand.

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='hellothere' post='1150712' date='Mar 5 2011, 04:48 PM']Sorry, obviously something I should have included! My fretting hand.[/quote]
Could be one or a combination of a few things...
[list=1]
[*]If your action is a tad on the high side, you're having to apply more pressure to fret the notes, this can cause aches & pains but is easily remedied with a good setup.

[*]We all know about 'digging in' with the plucking hand (usually causes blisters), but the same can happen with the fretting hand & it can result in severe discomfort (possibly even long-term injury)... check you're not applying a 'death grip' to the neck - point 1 above can help with this, but it's also a concious desicion on your part.

[*]Fingering positions... Popular Received Wisdom has it that you [i]must[/i] play 1 finger per fret and keep the thumb centred in the back of the neck - rather like a Classical Guitar technique. However, in reality, this [i][b]doesn't work for everyone[/b][/i]... we're all built differently (different arm lengths, hand spans, finger lengths etc), so 'correct' left hand technique will naturally vary from one player to the next. Get it wrong & you'll get to know all about Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, RSI & all sorts of other bad sh1t very quickly.

[*]Bass height... Once again PRW states that your strap should be set such that the bass is at the same height whether you're sitting down or standing up. Once again, it ain't necessarily so - I [i]cannot[/i] practice sat down as it causes me a lot of left hand discomfort; standing up, I can do a two hour gig with no trouble. In my opinion, your strap should be adjusted such that the neck 'plops' into your hand when your hand & wrist are in a relaxed, neutral position. Resist the urge to position your bass exactly as worn by your hero (if you have one), unless your body geometries are identical, this is another potential recipe for disaster.
[/list]
These videos may help:




Two things to finish... Take a break from Anasthesia. Give it a few days off. Seriously. It's quite possible to overpractice something to the extent that stupid errors just start piling up... so you get frustrated, start over, screw up, start over, dig in, screw up etc. etc. Giving it a rest seems to let the brain assimilate things.

I'm making a huge assumption here, but... You're NOT Cliff Burton, nor will you ever be him. There was only one. BUT... There's only one of you, be [b]you[/b]. If someone walked into a gig of yours & didn't know you were on, which would you prefer to hear them say... "The bassist's got the whole CB thing nailed"? or... "That sounds like 'hellothere'"?

Pete.

[Blademan_98]

I really liked those video's they were informative.

I have also had wrist problems and found it was my thumb position (both guitar and bass).

One finger per fret is also my aim put I use the pivot method because I have small hands

Great topic and very informative.

[hellothere]

[quote name='Bloodaxe' post='1150756' date='Mar 5 2011, 05:45 PM']Could be one or a combination of a few things...
[list=1]
[*]If your action is a tad on the high side, you're having to apply more pressure to fret the notes, this can cause aches & pains but is easily remedied with a good setup.

[*]We all know about 'digging in' with the plucking hand (usually causes blisters), but the same can happen with the fretting hand & it can result in severe discomfort (possibly even long-term injury)... check you're not applying a 'death grip' to the neck - point 1 above can help with this, but it's also a concious desicion on your part.

[*]Fingering positions... Popular Received Wisdom has it that you [i]must[/i] play 1 finger per fret and keep the thumb centred in the back of the neck - rather like a Classical Guitar technique. However, in reality, this [i][b]doesn't work for everyone[/b][/i]... we're all built differently (different arm lengths, hand spans, finger lengths etc), so 'correct' left hand technique will naturally vary from one player to the next. Get it wrong & you'll get to know all about Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, RSI & all sorts of other bad sh1t very quickly.

[*]Bass height... Once again PRW states that your strap should be set such that the bass is at the same height whether you're sitting down or standing up. Once again, it ain't necessarily so - I [i]cannot[/i] practice sat down as it causes me a lot of left hand discomfort; standing up, I can do a two hour gig with no trouble. In my opinion, your strap should be adjusted such that the neck 'plops' into your hand when your hand & wrist are in a relaxed, neutral position. Resist the urge to position your bass exactly as worn by your hero (if you have one), unless your body geometries are identical, this is another potential recipe for disaster.
[/list]
These videos may help:

Two things to finish... Take a break from Anasthesia. Give it a few days off. Seriously. It's quite possible to overpractice something to the extent that stupid errors just start piling up... so you get frustrated, start over, screw up, start over, dig in, screw up etc. etc. Giving it a rest seems to let the brain assimilate things.

I'm making a huge assumption here, but... You're NOT Cliff Burton, nor will you ever be him. There was only one. BUT... There's only one of you, be [b]you[/b]. If someone walked into a gig of yours & didn't know you were on, which would you prefer to hear them say... "The bassist's got the whole CB thing nailed"? or... "That sounds like 'hellothere'"?

Pete.[/quote]

Thanks for that detailed answer Pete, I will chech out those videos later tonight so I can't comment on them yet. As for the points you made-

[list=1]
[*]I think you might have hit the nail on the head straight away there, I didn't think about that. I am using my Ibanez Iceman and it has a factory set up and the action is pretty high. I will get out one of my other basses and see if I notice a difference, I might not have noticed the problem before on the Iceman as I havn't really played anything so twiddly before on it. Maybe it's time to get it set-up proffesionally?

[*]I do do this occasionally but whenever I notice I correct it immeditaly and the more I correct myself the less it happens.

[*]I do play 1 finger a fret whenever it is uncomfortable.

[*]Yeah I'm pretty good with just wearing my bass and sitting with it however is most comfortable. I learnt my lesson about not to trying to immitate other people's "style" when I first started playing and the first time I played with friends, trying to wear it around my ankles lol.
[/list]

I completely agree, I know it's best to take a break if you start to get frustrated, once you get pissed things just go downhill. I also see your pointabout getting your own style, I feel it is something that will come as I get better as a bassist, play with a wider variety of people, try out different thigns, etc. I would feel pompous claiming to have my own style at the moment though haha.



P.S What is the Pivot technique?

[Bloodaxe]

Sounds like you've already got a handle on it then. If you can afford it, get the Iceman stoned & levelled. Ibanez have a good QC reputation, but they're still mass-produced; so the frets may not be 100% level. I put my Aria TSB-400 into the Gallery a couple of years back to have this done & what came back was absolutely staggering - fag-paper low action all the way up on a bass that cost a little over £100 (in 1982). Make sure you go to a decent tech/luthier for that though... I've read way too many nightmare stories about guitar shops' 'have a go Joe' techs.

I had to do a bit of Googling to find anything on Pivoting. I turfed up this: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Rabbath"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Rabbath[/url]
At first reading, it seems I've been doing something like this since Day 1 (ditto the same with the first video I posted); happy accident I guess.

As to developing your own style, sounds like you're on the right lines (if there are any). I'd only add [b]Nick Stuff Off Anybody, irrespective of their instrument[/b] - if it sounds good, walk off with it, mess around with it & hopefully it'll sink in & re-appear in some form later on.

P.

[Blademan_98]

[quote name='hellothere' post='1151040' date='Mar 5 2011, 11:17 PM']P.S What is the Pivot technique?[/quote]

The best explanation is in the video but to sum it up:

You play one finger per fret but (keeping the wrist straight) you move the fingers instead of stretching.

It keeps the movement natural and doesn't cause stress to the wrist or fingers.

[hellothere]

I beleive the best luthier near me would be Shuker? I live in Derbyshire and have heard really good things about them, their basses aswell as their set-ups. I know what levlling is but what is stoning?

Thankyou you two for the info about pivoting, I do that pretty much anyway but I'm going to try to pay extra close attention to fretting now as this is the first time playinga nythign has caused a pain that is more than a tired hand from playing for too long.

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='hellothere' post='1151976' date='Mar 6 2011, 10:22 PM']I beleive the best luthier near me would be Shuker? I live in Derbyshire and have heard really good things about them, their basses aswell as their set-ups. I know what levlling is but what is stoning?[/quote]
Same as levelling really, apologies for the tautology. Once they're levelled, they need to be 'crowned' which is re-shaping them after the file/stone has done its stuff.

Adrian Shuker has a rock-solid reputation - I'd put him as one of the top five luthiers in the country. If he can't get your neck to take a fag-paper low action, no-one can. His prices look good too.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Bloodaxe

[Skol303]

[quote name='hellothere' post='1150594' date='Mar 5 2011, 02:31 PM']I have recently started learning Anesthesia by Cliff Burton, something I know alot of people learn quite early on but it has taken me a while to get round to it.[/quote]

... just out of interest, which section of Anesthesia is making your hand hurt? i.e. the first bit, or the second half when the drums kick in?

I've always found the first section fairly easy to play, and second section more challenging. That said, there are a few 'workarounds' (i.e. cheats!) for the second half, which cut out some of the more difficult stretches and finger work. Have a look on Google/YouTube if that helps.

If it's the first bit that's causing you problems, then I hate to say it, but it sounds like you might have a problem beyond this particular bass solo - with RSI or similar - and if so I strongly recommend you have a chat with a doctor before trying to force you way through Anesthesia, just to be on the safe side.

'Tis is a great solo though! Cliff was a far more 'intelligent' player than most people give him credit for... I moved on to learning some of the Bach cello suites after being inspired by Mr Burton! :-)

R.I.P. indeed.