derrenleepoole Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Okay, so I'm loving the NS Wav EUB, put I've come across an issue I'm at a loss to explain. Basically, my sound of the NS Wav is sounding very choked and lifeless through my Promethean amp. When the NS Wav is played through my Phil Jones Bass Buddy (with headphones) all the tone, growl and tone is there - in bundles too. But, when used through the amp, all the sound is very choked - there's no tone or sustain. In fact, even using the pizz and arco switch produces no noticeable change! I'm at a loss to explain this, totally. Anyone else had something similar? I'm not using the Bass Buddy as a preamp, just going from the Wav, straight into the amp. I don't know how this can be explained? Thoughts or suggestions are most welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 (edited) At a guess, the PJBB has a higher input impedance than the Prom. Use the PJBB into the Prom - sorted. I do not know the Wav and do not know if it has a decent pre-amp on board or not. Edited March 6, 2011 by owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrenleepoole Posted March 6, 2011 Author Share Posted March 6, 2011 Unfortunately the Bass Buddy is actually faulty and will be going back to the US soon. So for the time being at least, that's not an option. I may look at a dedicated upright preamp though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonbass Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 (edited) Hi Derren, Just a few thoughts as I had quite a steep learning curve trying to get a good sound out of my WAV4: - I'm not sure you'll ever get growl out of an EUB, certainly not in the same way you would from a jazz bass; punchy and percussive yes, but mid frequencies will, by the nature of the beast, always be lacking. - EUBs have much lower frequency range than your typical electric bass, so you have to be aware those deep fundamentals will be there - they can totally overwhelm the sound, or be completely missing if you don't set your tone right, so you have to find the happy medium. - I found the output of the WAV (rather surprisingly) is incredibly hot, so I usually set the volume at around midway up, otherwise you tend to get a lot of compression (or even distortion) at the preamp stage which completely damps all the wonderful percussive elements of the bass. - Likewise overdoing compression as an effect can ruin the tone (but I tend to keep a smidgeon in to even things out... probably cos my technique's not great!) - I set the WAVs tone know to about midway too as full up is very thin sounding. - The arco/pizz switch usually makes a big sound difference on my bass (pizz sounds really nasal played fingerstyle) - if you don't notice a difference through your headphones there may well be something fundamentally wrong with your electrics. - I use my WAV through a markbass 12" cab with fairly flat settings on my littlemark 250 head and it sounds great. Through my 4x10" cab it sounds much more like a bass guitar. Not sure of the scientific reason for this, but Markbass certainly market their 12" cab as excellent for uprights, and I have to agree. - I have found that Sound Engineers (even excellent ones) can never get a decent sound when DIing straight to a desk, live or in studio, with the WAV (and I am fairly happy to DI a bass guitar, so I'm certainly no purist!) But going through the Littlemark as a preamp makes everything fine... again, not sure why, but I never play without a preamp on the EUB because of this. Hope this is of some use. A. Edited March 6, 2011 by moonbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrenleepoole Posted March 6, 2011 Author Share Posted March 6, 2011 A bit of further reading suggests that this could be a miss matched impedance issue. The amp not fully configured to handle the impedance of the piezo pickups..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 If sound engineers cannot get a decent sound when DIing your WAV then it is definitely a piezo/buffering issue. It is to do with your pre-amp. If you are handy with a soldering iron there are plenty of schematics out there - [url="http://www.cafewalter.com/cafewalter/fetpre/index.htm"]http://www.cafewalter.com/cafewalter/fetpre/index.htm[/url] is a decent one. The only way I can tell one end of a soldering iron from the other is that one end hurts when I hold it. Walter made me one in a mints box. It has been great for just this kind of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrenleepoole Posted March 6, 2011 Author Share Posted March 6, 2011 Well, further reading has me convinced that it's probably a miss matched impedance issue. The fact that the EUB sounds amazing through the Bass Buddy, albeit with headphones, but dull and lifeless without the BB, but played straight into the amp I think strongly points towards this as being the likely cause. Annoyingly the Bass Buddy has developed a fault whereby there's a very loud and noticeable low frequency hum coming from the unit. Not too bad for headphone practice, but makes it unusable as a preamp Phil Jones have offered to take it back and have a look at it I've spied a few K&K Pure preamps and a Fishman on eBay at good prices, so I think they may do as a good temporary stop gap. @Moonbass - cheers for the indepth response, some useful info there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ficelles Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 As I posted in another thread, I almost always use my WAV through a Seymour Duncan Paranormal Bass DI... I hadn't really thought about impendance mismatch but it certainly improves the sound hugely. On the other hand, the WAV sounds just fine straight into my Ashdown Acoustic Radiator. ficelles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrenleepoole Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 [quote name='ficelles' post='1152106' date='Mar 7 2011, 12:46 AM']As I posted in another thread, I almost always use my WAV through a Seymour Duncan Paranormal Bass DI... I hadn't really thought about impendance mismatch but it certainly improves the sound hugely. On the other hand, the WAV sounds just fine straight into my Ashdown Acoustic Radiator. ficelles[/quote] Isn't the Acoustic Radiator just that, an amp designed for acoustic instruments? So it's input will more than likely be set to accommodate piezo pickups and such. The bass sounds ace through the Phil Jones Bass Buddy, so a preamp is certainly the order of the day. Don't know why I didn't twig it was impedance straight away? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonbass Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Hmm, so I'm confused: after reading this thread and some others I've found, I don't think I understand the input impedance issue. If piezos are high impedance should they not have a low output (compared to guitar pickups?) and how come some preamps can handle the high impedance and some can't? Wouldn't this require some kind of buffer switch (like between active and passive?) Am I just lucky that my Markbass stuff seems to handle it ok? And why wouldn't a pro mixing desk be able to take high impedance inputs as a DI effectively? Are mic inputs low or high impedance? (Sorry if I'm hijacking the thread.) A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ficelles Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 [quote name='derrenleepoole' post='1152157' date='Mar 7 2011, 07:46 AM']Isn't the Acoustic Radiator just that, an amp designed for acoustic instruments? So it's input will more than likely be set to accommodate piezo pickups and such.[/quote] Yeah the AR is designed for piezo rather than magnetic so no surprise it sounds good straight through it. If I want to get a good tone through my SWR Electric Blue head I really need the Bass DI though. ficelles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franzbassist Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Bob Gollihur says this about the WAV: [i]I recommend you consider a suitable outboard preamp or be conscious of the fact that, like any instrument with a passive piezo-based pickup, some EQ work will be a good idea to shape the tone to your preference.[/i] His page on [url="http://www.gollihurmusic.com/faq/11-PREAMPS_DO_YOU_NEED_A_PREAMP_WITH_YOUR_URB_PICKUP.html"]do you need a preamp with your pickup?[/url] is also a good read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
27 frets Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 [quote name='moonbass' post='1152169' date='Mar 7 2011, 08:35 AM']Hmm, so I'm confused: after reading this thread and some others I've found, I don't think I understand the input impedance issue. If piezos are high impedance should they not have a low output (compared to guitar pickups?) and how come some preamps can handle the high impedance and some can't? Wouldn't this require some kind of buffer switch (like between active and passive?) Am I just lucky that my Markbass stuff seems to handle it ok? And why wouldn't a pro mixing desk be able to take high impedance inputs as a DI effectively? Are mic inputs low or high impedance? (Sorry if I'm hijacking the thread.) A.[/quote] In simple terms, a high impedance piezo pickup produces a relatively high (voltage) level (and very low current level), but this then degrades significantly with cable length, and/or if fed into a lower impedance input. So a preamp high impedance input is used to 'buffer' the signal and produce an output with a lower impedance for going into a standard amp input, and an even lower impedance signal for DI purposes (the low impedance standard for microphone/mixer inputs is around 600-2000 ohms). Low impedance signals tolerate much longer cable lengths, and can be fed into a range of input impedances, without deterioration in frequency response and signal level. Piezo signals also have an uneven frequency response, so the preamp may also offer some EQ to balance this. The ideal is to match the amp/preamp input impedance to the pickup impedance as closely as possible - some bass amps do have relatively high impedance inputs (1 M Ohm = 1000000 Ohms or higher), so will work OK with high impedance signals from piezo piezo, typically around 10M Ohm impedance. Standard 'high impedance' inputs for magnetic pickup or microphone signals were once as low as 50-100K Ohms (but usually higher now), which gives a significant mismatch with a piezo signal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franzbassist Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Promethean input impedance is 470 kOhm PJB Bass Buddy input impedance: Passive >4MΩ Active >100KΩ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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