Open mindedness

[ARGH]

Im used to idiots,ye Gods there are enough of them of this forum,but Im always coming across such conservatism in the Bass community to change and difference,its not just the anti ERB stance......thats to be accepted,it looks plain freaky compared to a limited range Bass,but nothing original or different is being done on a 4 string instrument unless you alternate tune in a savage fashion (ala Manring),and even then people cant get to grips at the possibility,or even allow the idea, of performing upon the instrument as a solo or 'solo-able' point of expression.

Expression is easily suppressed by many factors,tradition,fear of ridicule,and of course our old friend ignorance.

Seeing as nothing new,or at least ear catching,is being made,this is bad....I see this a VERY bad. There is only so long we can go on harking back at the old heros,its time to accept that traditions..not standards,but traditions...have to ...cease....even die out peacefully...all the arguements must end..the bar must be raised.

It will take an awesome effort,changing the rule of guard....we are 'Guitarists' after all,and we have the abilities and freedom of expression,break free from the herd mentality,and when the spotlight shines on us...try to make the extra effort at your next gig,every little step....every little step.

[ped]

Interesting theory. I however have never really listened to or been a fan of the 'old heroes' and I constantly find new and inspiring bass playing on what you might call a boring and traditional fretted 4 or 5 string bass. I guess it boils down to your own taste. C'est la vie

[ped]

...This is not to say I havent enjoyed music with multiple string basses, ERBs, uprights or no bass at all.

[ARGH]

[quote name='ped' post='132424' date='Feb 2 2008, 09:59 AM']Interesting theory. I however have never really listened to or been a fan of the 'old heroes' and I constantly find new and inspiring bass playing on what you might call a boring and traditional fretted 4 or 5 string bass. I guess it boils down to your own taste. C'est la vie[/quote]

Name them,are they just playing Bassasatradition or actually breaking new ground? Taking the instrument forward...

Thought not.

Edited February 2, 2008 by ARGH

[Hamster]

I agree with what you say, but I don't think it's an attitude exclusive to bass players. Many musicians qualities and talents aren't even 'discovered' until after they're dead.

Hamster

[ped]

[quote name='ARGH' post='132429' date='Feb 2 2008, 10:06 AM']Name them,are they just playing Bassasatradition or actually breaking new ground? Taking the instrument forward...

Thought not.[/quote]

Not like the likes of Manaring and other visionaries like that, but then I wouldn't want to listen to that every day. Whilst I can admire the skill, I would rather listen to a sweet groove then get hung up on weather it is played on a 4,5,10, 20 or more string bass in an upright, horizontal or lap steel fashion.

Each to their own mate, nobody is arguing with you here!

[ARGH]

With sessions dying off (one music school tutor admitted to me he had not 'done one' in 3 years),VST plug ins,and producers just playing the Bass on their tracks themselves(my opinion here,but what do they know about playing Bass in a creative sense)....as things stand,we are ..or in danger of, having run out of ideas.

We have to move forward....Because I dont see the Bassguitar,in its limited standard form of design and expression,being around in the next 40-60 years,let alone the next century,except in the hands of historians....and what I can only describe as 'styled revivalists' (kinda sealed knot types or suchlike)

Dramatic thought I know,but given the failure of modern music to provide anything stylistically and Technically new (as in to us as Bassists) in guitarbased music since..Grunge,I can only think of DoubleThumbing and Bill Dickens's technique as purely an advancement of 70s slap....

Our jobs have to change,as do our instruments.

Edited February 2, 2008 by ARGH

[ped]

Well it depends what you want to listen to.

Did someone laugh at your 9 string last night or something? ;0)

[Paul Cooke]

[quote name='ARGH' post='132445' date='Feb 2 2008, 10:33 AM']With sessions dying off (one music school tutor admitted to me he had not 'done one' in 3 years),VST plug ins,and producers just playing the Bass on their tracks themselves(my opinion here,but what do they know about playing Bass in a creative sense)....as things stand,we are ..or in danger of, having run out of ideas.

We have to move forward....[/quote]

no, sorry... don't follow you here... I'm perfectly happy supplying the groove for blues and CC and gospel. I am completely uninterested in any form of tapping, slapping, popping or whatever... can't be jiggered to solo...

a VST can't work off and feed the crowd... pre-recorded tracks similarly can't do it either... there's always a place for a Bassist and Drummer to get things going...

the only reason you're upset is because of the cult of the DJ and nightclubs... and the resulting lack of venues in the UK for proper live playing...

[quote name='ARGH' post='132445' date='Feb 2 2008, 10:33 AM']Our jobs have to change,as do our instruments.[/quote]

no they don't... our job is to hold down the bottom end and supply the platform for everyone else to work on...

[ARGH]

No I changed medication.





But seriously,Its been bothering me,I was wondering if that dreaded moment of "Getting old" had kicked in,I checked and it hadnt...

Given the threads recently along the lines of "Where have the good Bassplayers gone?"...I think my point is a contributing factor.

The "Im alright Jack" response wont do either,its happening as multitasking takes over,I fear we are part of being left behind.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='ped' post='132446' date='Feb 2 2008, 10:34 AM']Did someone laugh at your 9 string last night or something? ;0)[/quote]
Laugh - I nearly sh*t.

[thumbo]

[quote name='ARGH' post='132445' date='Feb 2 2008, 10:33 AM']We have to move forward....Because I dont see the Bassguitar,in its limited standard form of design and expression,being around in the next 40-60 years,let alone the next century,except in the hands of historians....and what I can only describe as 'styled revivalists' (kinda sealed knot types or suchlike)[/quote]

Why don't you think it will be around in 40-60 years?

[ARGH]

[quote name='Paul Cooke' post='132464' date='Feb 2 2008, 10:58 AM']no, sorry... don't follow you here... I'm perfectly happy supplying the groove for blues and CC and gospel. I am completely uninterested in any form of tapping, slapping, popping or whatever... can't be jiggered to solo...1

a VST can't work off and feed the crowd... pre-recorded tracks similarly can't do it either... there's always a place for a Bassist and Drummer to get things going...2

the only reason you're upset is because of the cult of the DJ and nightclubs... and the resulting lack of venues in the UK for proper live playing...3



no they don't... our job is to hold down the bottom end and supply the platform for everyone else to work on...4[/quote]

1,Good for you,you've reached a point of being happy...glad for you,I hope you forfill the joy for many in your church and beyond.

2,saw a band the other night that did exactly that the other night,no Ryth section onstage at all,and they were awsome (I was in a state of tremors....But you have no Drums I thought,and then I felt unemployed...gulp)

3,Nope,sorry,you are just plain wrong there,Pubs and WMCs and weddings etc,are at overflow here.....But the DJ thing is a gritty thought in the shoe of my brain...popular music..

4,see 1 for my joy for you,right now thats great...but we can and should be doing so much more..think of the possibilities,maybe its my union mentality kicking in,but if point 2 continues (and judging by the posters I keep seeing,and music that is 'popular' its growing) .....traditional thinking might be our creator and destroyer.*






*Tad Apocalyptic..seems fitting given the Dantes Theme I was discussing the other day.

[ped]

I think YOU need to broaden YOUR horizons if that is your outlook on the art of bass playing today....

[alexclaber]

If you think bassists are conservative, you should look at guitarists. Or in fact practically any other instrumentalist!

I can't see why good new music won't be being created on the bass guitar in a century's time, it fulfils the function of providing the foundation a band (or any kind of musical collective) in a more intuitive and natural way than any keyboard or sequencer whilst being easier to play than a big old upright.

Furthermore I don't understand the obsession with constantly moving music forward instead of simply creating good music - it is only since the dawn of recording that originality has become so overvalued compared to quality.

If you want to make original music on the bass I don't see why you need tons of strings - I can see why you may want them but why would you need them? On a 4 string you have 3 octaves of notes and 8 octaves of sound and the human ear only covers 10 octaves. I'm suspect you're doing good things with your 9, otherwise you wouldn't be so vehement about any detractors but I don't see why you're looking upon those creating new music with fewer strings, it strikes me as equally close minded as those you detest.

Alex

[ARGH]

[quote name='thumbo' post='132475' date='Feb 2 2008, 11:13 AM']Why don't you think it will be around in 40-60 years?[/quote]

Mutation,there is only so much you can do with we have at the moment,and its limits have been reached....music,basically all the other instruments around us are changing...our cousins (G***arists) have jumped on board without any qualms.

In its currant design,if nothing moves or changes...its going to be played as a 'gimmick' or 'remember that sound' type thing rather than a vital needed part of music thats part of the cutting edge.

Its happening at the extreme end of the spectrum....and that trickles through,takes time a few generations at best,but I can see it happening.

[kdphysio]

[quote name='ARGH' post='132480' date='Feb 2 2008, 11:25 AM']..and that trickles through,takes time a few generations at best,but I can see it happening.[/quote]

we'll all be long-gone by then, so try not to get too bogged down with worrying about it....unless you want to leave a musical legacy for the future generations of your family (IMO your 9er will do that nicely).

Edited February 2, 2008 by kdphysio

[alexclaber]

[quote name='ARGH' post='132480' date='Feb 2 2008, 11:25 AM']Mutation,there is only so much you can do with we have at the moment,and its limits have been reached....music,basically all the other instruments around us are changing...our cousins (G***arists) have jumped on board without any qualms.[/quote]

They have? Show me what proportion of guitarists are playing other than 6 string Fenders, Gibsons or one of a handful of 'approved' makers. Then compare that to the number of bassists playing fretless, 5, 6, 7+ strings, active, etc basses.


[quote name='ARGH' post='132480' date='Feb 2 2008, 11:25 AM']In its currant design,if nothing moves or changes...its going to be played as a 'gimmick' or 'remember that sound' type thing rather than a vital needed part of music thats part of the cutting edge.[/quote]

Gimmick? The bass guitar is predominantly used to provide the lowest notes and thus the harmonic and rhythmic foundation for the vast majority of music created nowadays. Even in electronica related genres it remains used. The double bass is still king for orchestral music and jazz and fulfils exactly the same function in the same way.

Your post makes almost no sense. The whole 'problem' with being a bassist is that your role is so utterly lacking in 'gimmicks' and 'remember that sound' type moments that no-one ever notices you or gives you credit for what you bring to the music. It seems that despite your experience this is still jarring with you, that you're lacking the self-confidence to believe in what you do and thus are being paranoid and oversensitive.

I don't really care what the rest of the world does - I shall continue to enjoy writing, recording and performing original music which has my bass playing at the heart of it. If in 20 years I'm the only person doing so then I shall relish my uniqueness but sadly I suspect I'm unlikely to have that marketing advantage.

Alex

[bassninja]

".....thats to be accepted,it looks plain freaky compared to a [i][b]limited[/b][/i] range Bass"

Surely only limited range minds are the problem? Great music has been and will continue to be made on 4/5/6/7/8/9 & more string basses. What about Tony Levin's 3 string MM?

Who was it who said " There's only two types of music: stuff I like and stuff I don't..."

This feels like a redundant debate to me, of the type you're criticising in the first place.

[ARGH]

[quote name='ARGH' post='132480' date='Feb 2 2008, 11:25 AM']Mutation,there is only so much you can do with we have at the moment,and its limits have been reached....music,basically all the other instruments around us are changing...our cousins (G***arists) have jumped on board without any qualms.

In its currant design,if nothing moves or changes...its going to be played as a 'gimmick' or 'remember that sound' type thing rather than a vital needed part of music thats part of the cutting edge.

Its happening at the extreme end of the spectrum....and that trickles through,takes time a few generations at best,but I can see it happening.[/quote]


Rethought this whilst picking my car up from its MOT (It passed) Totalguitars,covering all ranges...maybe a bit 'Tomorrows world',bit like the stick...Im no fortune teller...

[Musky]

I think there's a lot to be said for your argument ARGH, though I think it's rather in the nature of instrument rather than simple conservatism. There's only so much you can do with a stringed instrument, no matter how many strings you add to it, and essentially all those things have been done. We can add strings, detune, add effects or try new ways of attacking the strings, but fundamentally we're stuck with the same instrument. A lot of experimentation with bass just leads to replication of sounds available guitarists of keyboards. Nothing wrong with that of course - it keeps us as bassists in business - but it's nothing really new. And ultimately someone has to hold down the bottom end - it might be a keyboard player or a second (or third!) bassist, but it's likely to be us.

Of course, nothing really new in rock has happened for quite some time (I wouldn't even call Grunge new). Pop has (long ago) eaten itself. But all the really new sounds are coming from the dance scene - which of course doesn't really use bass guitars. I think we ought to recognise that we're working within what is now quite an old cultural form, and one that's not likely to be the dominant one forever. Given the way instrumentation changes with genuinely new forms of music (or is that the other way round?) I don't think we need fret (ouch) too much progression of technique. Like the piano, the bass is what it is.

[Guest MoJo]

For those of us old enough to remember, there was exactly the same feeling as ARGH is expressing here at the beginning of the 80's for both drummers and bass players alike.

Machines abounded that could produce accurate, error free drum tracks and bass lines. Many studios had a 'drum programmer' and bass lines were now the property of the keyboard player.

As bass players, we looked at our four string planks and thought, "This is it...this is the end".

As we all know the 80's have come and gone and the bass guitar is still here. The guitar-based band is at the forefront once more. There is room in this big old world of ours for acts like White Stripes and Blood Red Shoes who don't feel the need for a bass player, but rest assured, it isn't the end. Bass players, the inspirational and the traditional alike will be around for a long long time to come.

Also, ask yourself this. Who, in the world of guitars, drums and electronic music is producing something today, that can't have the "[i]finger of influence[/i]" pointed at them? Everyone takes something from the past and tweaks it to their own taste. That's human nature and long may it remain so

[ARGH]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='132484' date='Feb 2 2008, 11:40 AM']They have? Show me what proportion of guitarists are playing other than 6 string Fenders, Gibsons or one of a handful of 'approved' makers. Then compare that to the number of bassists playing fretless, 5, 6, 7+ strings, active, etc basses.1




Gimmick? The bass guitar is predominantly used to provide the lowest notes and thus the harmonic and rhythmic foundation for the vast majority of music created nowadays. Even in electronica related genres it remains used. The double bass is still king for orchestral music and jazz and fulfils exactly the same function in the same way.

Your post makes almost no sense. The whole 'problem' with being a bassist is that your role is so utterly lacking in 'gimmicks' and 'remember that sound' type moments that no-one ever notices you or gives you credit for what you bring to the music. It seems that despite your experience this is still jarring with you, that you're lacking the self-confidence to believe in what you do and thus are being paranoid and oversensitive.2

I don't really care what the rest of the world does - I shall continue to enjoy writing, recording and performing original music which has my bass playing at the heart of it. If in 20 years I'm the only person doing so then I shall relish my uniqueness but sadly I suspect I'm unlikely to have that marketing advantage.3

Alex[/quote]

1,see post 16 last line....

2,Thanks Freud I feel cured...given the large slab of purpleheart 2ft to my left,self confidence isnt an issue......weather I can play it is.

3, The Job description needs to expand...what is attainable now as in 'good',what if it was better?

[ARGH]

[quote name='bassman2790' post='132490' date='Feb 2 2008, 11:56 AM']For those of us old enough to remember, there was exactly the same feeling as ARGH is expressing here at the beginning of the 80's for both drummers and bass players alike.

Machines abounded that could produce accurate, error free drum tracks and bass lines. Many studios had a 'drum programmer' and bass lines were now the property of the keyboard player.

As bass players, we looked at our four string planks and thought, "This is it...this is the end".

As we all know the 80's have come and gone and the bass guitar is still here. The guitar-based band is at the forefront once more. There is room in this big old world of ours for acts like White Stripes and Blood Red Shoes who don't feel the need for a bass player, but rest assured, it isn't the end. Bass players, the inspirational and the traditional alike will be around for a long long time to come.

Also, ask yourself this. Who, in the world of guitars, drums and electronic music is producing something today, that can't have the "[i]finger of influence[/i]" pointed at them? Everyone takes something from the past and tweaks it to their own taste. That's human nature and long may it remain so[/quote]

Y'see,Im being nice today...I like nice...not Hostile..makes all the difference dosent it.

Hats off,a thinker....a genuine thought out,unhostile response

I remember as a kid the MU debate about Synths,They were these fun but big heavy wooden demonic boxes that sounded really cool.

But the instrument HAS changed since then....technology and technique...Im just thinking its going to...nope..got to change again...

[alexclaber]

[quote name='ARGH' post='132498' date='Feb 2 2008, 12:09 PM']But the instrument HAS changed since then....technology and technique...Im just thinking its going to...nope..got to change again...[/quote]

Any changes in technique and technology since the '80s relating to the use of the bass guitar in the vast majority of of music have been marginal at best. But as with all subjective the things, the 'truth' depends on your perspective and I doubt your truth will ever be anywhere near mine.

But talking about all this is rather pointless - I want to hear your examples of what you're doing differently and am more than happy to share examples of what I'm doing differently.

Alex