Live Sequencing?

[Dave Vader]

Yep, with our continuingly absent keyboard player, the gaps are starting to show. I have been tentatively asked if I would mind sequencing all the parts up with my ropey old gear.
I have already told them I will need a new laptop to run the software off, and warned them that they might need in-ear monitors to run click tracks into.
Anybody else working with sequencers out there with any more hints I can use to put them off
Or hints as to how I can make it work without crashing endlessly.
I was thinking of running either rosegarden or seq24 on an as yet undecided Linux distro, probably either studio64 or Jack.
And then running that into my old Roland D110, Akai sampler and a Boss DR550 for the click.

Does anybody have any experience with trying to run an entire set on sequencers? I'm worried that if I load the whole hour on at once that it will crash even the hardiest of systems.

And no I can't afford a Mac.

[crez5150]

Hey DV

Yep have done myself.... used to run a rack of modules with Digital Performer on a older Macbook with a couple of Motu 828 MKK2's handling the Audio (loops). Was very stable and never really had any issues. Used to run two sets one lasting an hour and one an hour and a half. Used to load the second set during the break.

Gone back to having a keys player in the band now who drops samples and loops in real time although he is toying with the set up and we will be re-incorporating the sequencer back in at some point over the next few months so I'm really looking forward to that.... I think the key is not to be too dependant on the sequenced material so that it does not become too rigid or mechanical

cheers

Jay

[JTUK]

We only run a few basic sequences as always use a keyboard player anyway.

The key, as you know, is finding a drummer who can play reliably to click. They all think they can do it but few can carry it very far, IME...and that is ok..until you need to use it. If you have a drummer who can do it, then everyone just plays to him anyway.

The kit to run the sequences is the least of it, IMV.

[Earbrass]

I have a Roland Sonic Cell. [url="http://www.roland.co.uk/soniccell"]http://www.roland.co.uk/soniccell[/url]

It's a multi-function box - MIDI sound module, audio/MIDI interface, and most relevant for your purposes, a live performance box capable of replaying mp3s or standard MIDI files from a connected USB memory stick. Now, I've never used this last function, but it might offer a pc-less solution to your problem. The internal MIDI module is superb, but you should be able to connect other modules via the MIDI out and play those from the MIDI file too, I should imagine. Have a look here:

[url="http://www.roland.co.uk/soniccell/live-performance.php"]http://www.roland.co.uk/soniccell/live-performance.php[/url]

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1163019' date='Mar 15 2011, 01:11 PM']We only run a few basic sequences as always use a keyboard player anyway.

The key, as you know, is finding a drummer who can play reliably to click. They all think they can do it but few can carry it very far, IME...and that is ok..until you need to use it. If you have a drummer who can do it, then everyone just plays to him anyway.

The kit to run the sequences is the least of it, IMV.[/quote]

Yep, I figured that the kit would be the least of our problems, and was trying to find the cheapest way for us to find it out and either split up or decide not to do synth stuff anymore.
Sonic Cell looks very cool Earbrass, but I have no funds for such a lovely looking thing.
And still can't afford a Mac. But have high hopes for my linux setup which I can do for nowt, run it in the rehearsal room and find out that the drummer can't play along.
Already know the singer has real trouble hitting cues, but he's promised to fix that if it comes to it.

Really miss our old keys player, she was the best thing we had. Damn arthritis...

[DanOwens]

Sequence everything then bounce it down so that the sequenced stuff is hard-panned to one side and the other side is just a click with a two-bar count in.

Feed the click to your drummer and the sequenced audio to FoH.

Many bands I have worked with have done a variation of this using iPods, MiniDiscs and CDs (the latter being the most problematic). My advice is if you are going to have a laptop on stage and rely on it to play MIDI, have at least one spare. Again, electronic bands I've played with ([b]with[/b], not [b]in[/b]) have booted up just before going on and things have not worked; all they can do is shrug and accept they'll not be performing.

I suppose the crux of what I'm saying is 'go as low-tech as possible'. I play in a band with 4 laptops but we have about 20 contingency plans in case everything goes wrong (and it does).

Dan

[endorka]

[quote name='DanOwens' post='1163199' date='Mar 15 2011, 03:17 PM']I suppose the crux of what I'm saying is 'go as low-tech as possible'. I play in a band with 4 laptops but we have about 20 contingency plans in case everything goes wrong (and it does).

Dan[/quote]

Dan speaks the truth. Having witnessed several disasters in some of the most professional / high budget areas I can think of, I have concluded that domestic computer equipment and especially laptops are just not stable & rugged enough for prolonged and routine onstage use.

Yes, even Macs.

Jennifer

[algmusic]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1163019' date='Mar 15 2011, 01:11 PM']We only run a few basic sequences as always use a keyboard player anyway.

The key, as you know, is finding a drummer who can play reliably to click. They all think they can do it but few can carry it very far, IME...and that is ok..until you need to use it. If you have a drummer who can do it, then everyone just plays to him anyway.

The kit to run the sequences is the least of it, IMV.[/quote]


The problem is not the gear. It's the drummer being able to play to a click. Before you even shell out any gear, try and get the drummer to play to a click to your songs first. If he/she can do that great. It's important that the musicians are playing in time with the drummer or it will sound wierd. I no it sounds weird but people get used to drummers speeding up and slowing down they don't know good time themselves. I usually blame lack of teaching or bad teaching.

I've played on bass and had drummer telling me they can play to a click then we rehearsal to a click and they struggled. I've played live to clicks for years on drums and I'd say it took weeks of practice to be comfortable with the click and playing with the band. The band (singer + guitars) will try to push the music faster, but the drummer has to hold it together.

after that, yep an audio interface can work with logic, or other sequencing things. depending on how techny you get, but a simple 2in 2 out would work..

[phil.i.stein]

how about loading the sequences onto a loop pedal or a sequencer/sampler, that can be triggered by the drummer ?

all this depends on how intricate your sequences and songs are though..

[cheddatom]

I don't understand why it'd be difficult to drum to a click? Surely if you can't keep to a constant clicking, you're not much of a drummer?

[crez5150]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='1163235' date='Mar 15 2011, 03:51 PM']I don't understand why it'd be difficult to drum to a click? Surely if you can't keep to a constant clicking, you're not much of a drummer?[/quote]

There are a lot of players who cannot do this easily..... believe me

[cheddatom]

[quote name='crez5150' post='1163238' date='Mar 15 2011, 03:53 PM']There are a lot of players who cannot do this easily..... believe me[/quote]

Good players?

When I started playing to a click, it was [i]weird[/i] in that the usual ebb and flow of tempo wasn't there, but it's a big loud clicking in your ear. If you're not in time, it's going to get pretty f***ing annoying!! I'm by no means even an average drummer, but I can play to a click.

[Dave Vader]

My initial plan was to throw down a load of audio files onto some kind of mp3 player, but then the midi click reared it's head, and I went all techy again.
I suppose I can lose all the beautiful stereo sweeps for the sake of a hard-panned click track.
Btw, we're an 80s electro/ new romantic tribute act (I know not cool, but pays well). So triggering loops just won't work. Need to fully backup every tune. Really need a keys player.
Will run the tests with an mp3 player in the PA and if they work, will come up with plan B.

And I've played with plenty of drummers who take their tempo from me, which gets annoying, cos I speed up like a total tosser.

[algmusic]

[quote name='phil.i.stein' post='1163233' date='Mar 15 2011, 03:47 PM']how about loading the sequences onto a loop pedal or a sequencer/sampler, that can be triggered by the drummer ?

all this depends on how intricate your sequences and songs are though..[/quote]

I've tried that. The drummer still needs to have very good time and if the parts are during the song, it a problem unless it's sweeping


[quote name='cheddatom' post='1163235' date='Mar 15 2011, 03:51 PM']I don't understand why it'd be difficult to drum to a click? Surely if you can't keep to a constant clicking, you're not much of a drummer?[/quote]

TBH As a drummer and teacher. I think students should be taught to practice with a click and play to music from a backing track or CD, but many are not, so learning it years after is very difficult. It's almost like learning to walk again..

Yes no excuse, but it's not that easy

[BigRedX]

I spent nearly all of the 80s and 90s working with various levels of live sequencing and pre-performed backings.

Here are the essential points I've discovered:

1. As the others have said before doing anything else make sure your drummer can play to a click. Many simply aren't used to not being the time setter in the band and can't play to another source setting the tempo. Take some time to find out what your drummer is most comfortable with - some like a straight quarter note click with an accented 1st beat, others prefer something with a bit more rhythm. The problem that a lot of drummers have is that when you play exactly in time the sound of the click disappears beneath the sound of the actual drum.

2. Only the drummer really needs the click the rest of the band play to him/her. The standard way to do this is for the track to have a two bar count-in. One bar for the drummer to get the tempo and one bar for them to count the rest of the band in. Your drummer will need to remember to give the rest of the band some timing guides (stick clicks) in the parts where there are normally no drums such is intro, break downs etc as the rest of the band can't hear the click and will drift out of time without some reference.

3. TBH unless you need to interface the live instruments with the backing (sending timing or program information) or you're going to manipulate the sequences live, I wouldn't bother with using a sequencer. Simply record the keyboard parts on one track and the click on the other an use an audio playback device (iPod or similar) instead. The simplest solution is normally the most reliable.

4. If you must run the sequencer live, I wouldn't recommend a laptop unless you can afford a backup. One of the problems I've seen with laptops recently is that the sound levels at gigs can cause sufficient vibration in the laptop to trigger the hard disk anti-shock mechanism (designed to protect the drive if the laptop is knocked over) which is the last thing you want to happen if you're streaming audio off the drive! Dedicated hardware sequencer are always better - they are designed to do a single job and do it well. A computer and a laptop in particular is built to do lots of different jobs and the demands that running music software require are nearly never at the top of the manufacturers build specifications.

[DanOwens]

The thing about playing to a click (and this goes for everyone) is that it is a skill that needs to be practiced and the development of this skill relies on a variety of other skills being at a high standard.

Yes it sounds obvious that you'd want any musician to be locked into the 'Execute>Reflect>Improve' cycle, but in reality there are too many that aren't. To successfully lock in to a click, you need to listen to the click and listen to yourself and with every single beat of the metronome assess whether you need to speed up or slow down. Over time, this becomes second nature and eventually you'll start to allow the click to take over from your internal metronome and delegate that previously internal process to an external source.

Players who've been practicing on their own and just playing beats really struggle to externalise this and the familiar "It saps all the feel out of my playing" criticism rears its ugly and ignorant head.

The players who've honed these skills are usually the best players because the ability to adapt is a great quality and comes with musicianship that is soaked in humility and appreciation. Drummers who keep time with or without a click are highly prized and if I was to breed them, this would be my must-have quality.

Dan

PS. Yes I mentioned breeding drummers.

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='DanOwens' post='1163318' date='Mar 15 2011, 04:56 PM']Drummers who keep time with or without a click are highly prized and if I was to breed them, this would be my must-have quality.

Dan

PS. Yes I mentioned breeding drummers.[/quote]


I wish to visit your drummer breeding farm. It sounds useful.

[crez5150]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1163317' date='Mar 15 2011, 04:56 PM']I spent nearly all of the 80s and 90s working with various levels of live sequencing and pre-performed backings
4. If you must run the sequencer live, I wouldn't recommend a laptop unless you can afford a backup. One of the problems I've seen with laptops recently is that the sound levels at gigs can cause sufficient vibration in the laptop to trigger the hard disk anti-shock mechanism (designed to protect the drive if the laptop is knocked over) which is the last thing you want to happen if you're streaming audio off the drive! Dedicated hardware sequencer are always better - they are designed to do a single job and do it well. A computer and a laptop in particular is built to do lots of different jobs and the demands that running music software require are nearly never at the top of the manufacturers build specifications.[/quote]

Best not to leave it on top of your bass amp I guess.....

[thebrig]

[quote name='Dave Vader' post='1163168' date='Mar 15 2011, 02:47 PM']Yep, I figured that the kit would be the least of our problems, and was trying to find the cheapest way for us to find it out and either split up or decide not to do synth stuff anymore.
Sonic Cell looks very cool Earbrass, but I have no funds for such a lovely looking thing.
And still can't afford a Mac. But have high hopes for my linux setup which I can do for nowt, run it in the rehearsal room and find out that the drummer can't play along.
Already know the singer has real trouble hitting cues, but he's promised to fix that if it comes to it.

Really miss our old keys player, she was the best thing we had. Damn arthritis...[/quote]
Just wondering!

If the band have asked you to do the sequencing, how come you have to fork out for the gear, why don't they [i][b]all [/b][/i]chip in?

[BigRedX]

It's not happened to me - I've always used hardware sequencers or the file-playing capabilities of Akai samplers. However a friend's band who still use sequenced backing have recently switched to an iPod for playback since the vibration issue was causing havoc with the laptop. Even using shock mount damping only allowed them a bit more increase in playing volume until it kicked in again.

Having said all that, using live sequencing can open up a whole load of extra possibilities. The last band I was in to do this had not only all the synthesisers and samplers controlled by the sequencer, but also the program changes for the electronic drums, and guitar and bass effects as well as automated mixing. We were looking into controlling the light show as well just before the band split.

[crez5150]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1163355' date='Mar 15 2011, 05:13 PM']It's not happened to me - I've always used hardware sequencers or the file-playing capabilities of Akai samplers. However a friend's band who still use sequenced backing have recently switched to an iPod for playback since the vibration issue was causing havoc with the laptop. Even using shock mount damping only allowed them a bit more increase in playing volume until it kicked in again.

Having said all that, using live sequencing can open up a whole load of extra possibilities. The last band I was in to do this had not only all the synthesisers and samplers controlled by the sequencer, but also the program changes for the electronic drums, and guitar and bass effects as well as automated mixing. We were looking into controlling the light show as well just before the band split.[/quote]


Indeed.... though I never had issue with vibration..... my set up was a macbook into 2 x MOTU 828's which handled all audio and MIDI rack via built in ports into a soundcraft 328. The audio (loops) was sent via ADAT from the 828s into the desk then from there to FOH.

It was very stable, never crashed. Someone stood on one of the fibre cables and that caused issues but we had spares.

We have patch changes now sent from the keys player to change our Backdrop via projector and also to adjust the lights via DMX..... it takes a little programming but not a lot of brain power thats for sure.

[JTUK]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='1163235' date='Mar 15 2011, 03:51 PM']I don't understand why it'd be difficult to drum to a click? Surely if you can't keep to a constant clicking, you're not much of a drummer?[/quote]


Depends on the level of that player... if he has been in the studio a lot he will know the exposure of a click..if he hasn't he will not have had the necessity of playing constantly to the click.

I find this is the difference.. No drummer will admit to bad time ( relatively ) but since they invaribly have to set the time/tempo, they aren't often a slave to it..like the rest of us. We play to the drums..they play to themselves unless the have had to have had the discipline of a click in a certain situation.

Once the tempo becomes crucial and the drummer HAS to hit those cues..as does everyone else, ( a misssed cue can't be picked up..it is gone in terms of a sequence ) this sorts out the men from the boys in drummers. IME.

This is why we keep it as simple as possible and I like to think we have a solid sorted drummer.
And of course..the thing the drummer will complain about when he loses time, is that he can't hear the click monitor ha ha !!! by then it can be too late.

[JellyKnees]

We have dispensed with a live drummer altogether (for a variety of reasons), and use a combination of loops, sequenced drums plus a few extra keyboard bits and pieces as backing.

This is what we use...

[url="http://www.dv247.com/studio-equipment/denon-dn-f300-professional-solid-state-audio-player--68472"]http://www.dv247.com/studio-equipment/deno...o-player--68472[/url]

A bit expensive but totally reliable. Solid state, so no moving parts (unlike a computer, mini disc, CD player etc etc). Will read a USB pen drive or an SD card. We have a mono mix on each channel, with a click intro on the left hand side for stage monitoring.

Works a treat.

[Commando Jack]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='1163235' date='Mar 15 2011, 03:51 PM']Surely if you can't keep to a constant clicking, you're not much of a drummer?[/quote]

There are many qualities that make a drummer worth having. Dynamics, musical sensitivity and groove are arguably as important as timekeeping, if not more so. The exception is in a sequenced band, where if you don't play in time, you sound completely terrible, no matter how good your dynamics are. I

The reason I don't like clicks when drumming is that, as has been previously mentioned, you tend to lose the click under your drums when you are bang on time, which can be confusing. I solve this by having the click louder than everything else in my ear, until it becomes almost unbearable. Then you have a bloody awful noise in your ear all night!

The other problem is that all your power is taken away by a robot - song seems to drag? Too bad. That rock song just a bit too fast so that on a cold night in February the guitarist can't keep up with the solo? Too Bad. Singer misses his cue and you have to swing round the chorus again? TOO BAD!! Aarrgh!

The solution? Act like you can't play to a click!!

(NB, I haven't tried this and doubt many would, but it's amusing to think that some would do it to get out of the situation)

[algmusic]

[quote name='Commando Jack' post='1163524' date='Mar 15 2011, 07:08 PM']There are many qualities that make a drummer worth having. Dynamics, musical sensitivity and groove are arguably as important as timekeeping, if not more so. The exception is in a sequenced band, where if you don't play in time, you sound completely terrible, no matter how good your dynamics are. I

The reason I don't like clicks when drumming is that, as has been previously mentioned, you tend to lose the click under your drums when you are bang on time, which can be confusing. I solve this by having the click louder than everything else in my ear, until it becomes almost unbearable. Then you have a bloody awful noise in your ear all night!

The other problem is that all your power is taken away by a robot - song seems to drag? Too bad. That rock song just a bit too fast so that on a cold night in February the guitarist can't keep up with the solo? Too Bad. Singer misses his cue and you have to swing round the chorus again? TOO BAD!! Aarrgh!

The solution? Act like you can't play to a click!!

(NB, I haven't tried this and doubt many would, but it's amusing to think that some would do it to get out of the situation)[/quote]

Sorry mate, I have to disargee. Its annoys me when drummers use playing in 'groovey' can't be done do a click. You put steve gadd to a click and it still sounds amazing. It's the players ability to be able to make the click feel good. If i'm playing to a click I use in-ears, as it helps you to lock into the click, but your timing comes from being a good player and practicing playing to a click in a relaxed way. At the beginning, I used to have my click very loud, now it's just like one of the other instruments in my mix, like walking down the road with a friend. You don't chase, you just move along with it. The players around you start to realise they need to need to be more sensitive to time and lock into the drums.. which is a miracle for guitarists and singers.. In the long run the band benefits from it. I'e played gigs to clicks and the band didn't the difference to the ones that I used it from the ones I didn't and that's how it should be.