Fender

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='Shambo' post='1168032' date='Mar 19 2011, 10:44 AM']Fender is the worlds most famous marque in guitar and bass manifacturing so they can charge a premium for their instruments safe in the knowledge that demand for their product will always remain relatively stable.[/quote]

I disagree with this. I think it's true to an extent, but companies like Marshall and Gibson haven't been doing as well recently as they have in yesteryear. Fender don't stick on quite as much of a premium as those two though (IMO at least) but that doesn't mean that they're immune to losing out because of it.

The big thing going for Fender is that the P and Jazz are massively copied (for some reason bassists seem more into copies than guitarists, high end strat/LP/tele copies aren't that common compared to high end J/Ps IME), almost every (if not every) company has at least a copy of one or the other, or both, in their catalogue. Fender have the advantage of being "the original", so people assume that it makes them better. Most people haven't heard of a Sandberg JJ, but if you say you've got a Fender Jazz, they'll nod approvingly, even though it could be a MIM.

[luckman67]

My own thought is that your buying into the history of Fender from 1946 to the present day, and in their advertising they do make it look good just my thought. Though I do like to see the Fender name on the headstock of either a Precision or Jazz.

[Machines]

It's a lot to do with brand for sure, same with Gibson. They aren't the best, far from the worst but so many big names have used them that people are attracted to them to emulate their heroes. This allows them to charge a bit more than equivalent quality instruments from other lesser revered brands.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1168085' date='Mar 19 2011, 11:36 AM'].... Most people haven't heard of a Sandberg JJ, but if you say you've got a Fender Jazz, they'll nod approvingly, even though it could be a MIM.[/quote]
Or even a Squier. Great observation ^.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1168085' date='Mar 19 2011, 11:36 AM']The big thing going for Fender is that the P and Jazz are massively copied (for some reason bassists seem more into copies than guitarists, high end strat/LP/tele copies aren't that common compared to high end J/Ps IME), almost every (if not every) company has at least a copy of one or the other, or both, in their catalogue.[/quote]

There are loads of guitar copies its just that you havent noticed in the same way a guitarist wouldnt spot a Sadowsky from a Fender. Tokai is the first name that springs to mind now with a model costing more than the Gibsons too, You would have to be keeping a keen eye out at every gig to spot them but beleive me there are just as many Fender/Gibson style copy guitars as basses. As for strat copies bloomin heck everything since the 70's has been based on them ESP,Ibanez,Jackson etc etc In fact Thinking about as I type I tend to disagree so much that I think its the fact that the guitars have been copied so much they have just become other well known brands really?

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Mikeg' post='1167645' date='Mar 18 2011, 02:02 PM']For example, why does this cost 2000 pounds more than a MIJ p bass?[/quote]
Because someone will pay Prices are not set by the cost of making and selling them, they are priced at what the market will bear. Cost of manufacture only sets a minimum price they need to sell it for. Capitalism dictates the price rises to what the people will pay. Amusingly raising the price also raises the perceived value and once the over valued price is paid the customer often become an unpaid promoter of the product. If you want to understand more about the mental dynamics start here.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance[/url]

At least one guitar maker actively posts ads for their product with ridiculously high prices that never sell. Invariably this will result in a forum post somewhere by someone who says "wow I didn't know they were that good" and their perceived value has risen.

The moral here is keep the extra £2000 If you want to impress the people who can hear the difference change the decal on the headstock.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='AndyTravis' post='1167662' date='Mar 18 2011, 02:18 PM']Fender Japan and Fender Corona don't use the same lumber yard for theit woods, etc etc.[/quote]
Export grade is the good stuff. Japan even has treaties about this signed as part of the WW2 treaties. Also the wholesale cost of the wood in a Fender guitar is just a few dollars. Remember they were designed to be as cheap as possible.

[redstriper]

It would be very interesting to get a number of Fender basses - say 6 jazz or precision basses in a range of prices from the cheapest to the most expensive and have them all set up with the same strings, action etc.
Then let players test them through the same amp with the same settings in the same room - blindfold.
Those players would then be asked to rate the basses in order of preference - I would love to see the results.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1168232' date='Mar 19 2011, 01:52 PM']There are loads of guitar copies its just that you havent noticed in the same way a guitarist wouldnt spot a Sadowsky from a Fender. Tokai is the first name that springs to mind now with a model costing more than the Gibsons too, You would have to be keeping a keen eye out at every gig to spot them but beleive me there are just as many Fender/Gibson style copy guitars as basses. As for strat copies bloomin heck everything since the 70's has been based on them ESP,Ibanez,Jackson etc etc In fact Thinking about as I type I tend to disagree so much that I think its the fact that the guitars have been copied so much they have just become other well known brands really?[/quote]

I won't try and say you're wrong simply because I don't know as much about guitar gear as I do bass stuff. I did used to work in a guitar shop and I play though so I have looked around and to the best of my knowledge I've never seen companies like Sadowsky or Sandberg that directly copy another brand's gear at a high end level and make the majority of their profit from that.

Tokai of course do make some expensive stuff, but they're far better known for their cheap copies (I love Tokai, I have a les paul "love rock" which is stunning), Ibanez, ESP and Jackson have all made strat copies, along with other companies like BC Rich, but none of them are what the companies are known for. For the most part they've all been budget instruments too.

[stingrayPete1977]

I'm sure there are more guitar knowledgeable guys than me on here but I know guitar guitar stock a couple of makes that are basically the guitar equivalent of sadowsky and lakland for instance, I can't think what they are called but they do the same sort of thing from a standard fender equivalent through relic'd versions up to custom style models starting to venture into their own take on a tele/strat. It's the same if you search the net for exotic one offs from small quantity output luthiers, spalted coffee table with rear routed hand wound pickups but still 90% Fender Strat.

[stingrayPete1977]

There is a Tokai Love Rock model that retails for £3000 nowadays!

[iconic]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1168875' date='Mar 19 2011, 09:27 PM']It would be very interesting to get a number of Fender basses - say 6 jazz or precision basses in a range of prices from the cheapest to the most expensive and have them all set up with the same strings, action etc.
Then let players test them through the same amp with the same settings in the same room - blindfold.
Those players would then be asked to rate the basses in order of preference - I would love to see the results.[/quote]

would be very interesting...

and oldie but a goodie vid.... this came closeish as an ABA (well not at all really!) but it seems it wasn't a level playing field as flatwound strings v rounds can't be....but comparing a jazz v a jazz they all do sound very close to my poor hearing.

In Fenders defence, I used to be very anti-Fender, expensive for no good reason blah blah etc....but now I one one, a cheap MIMP, well I really adore my MIM P bass and it does feel so damn comfy, like ya worn out jeans, compared to the rest of my fleet...simply put you know ya gonna get a good/proper bass with a Fender, no nasty surprises, so to me it's worth paying a little more....bit like Coca Cola and Asda Smartprice....they taste [i]similar[/i], but not the same...

Anorak caveat:-....yes, please, I already know, they are mass produced and there will be a bum one around

Edited March 20, 2011 by iconic

[stingrayPete1977]

I love Ed and his Genz amps!

[Prime_BASS]

The OP made a very general generalisation.

MIA and MIJ are not made of the same components.
MIJ basses are made to fender specification using Japanese parts, cracking open a MIJ fender you'll clearly see "japan" on the pots and such. Which you don't see on MIA cause they are US parts. This will cause a significant price increase, along with the fact that some models now days come with some kind of special pickup. Then adding the shipping and the like.

Anyway, I'm not fussed. I'm more of a Musicman fellow these days.

[stingrayPete1977]

Cool clip, Im not keen on either of the 51's but I think the MIJ P was nicer sounding than the Squier yet I actually prefered the Squier Jazz tones to the Custom Shop ones! I guess thats the most expensive one out the lot too?

[JTUK]

I liked his own P-bass best..but then how stock was that, re strings etc...?

And like him of not..he does know how to set-up a bass for a review.
None of then were offensive, sound-wise, from this distance

[ead]

Probably worth considering the hard nosed economics of all of this. Pricing is affected by a number of different things, for example: Demand vs Supply curves, input costs, taxes, perceived values, competitors etc. I sounds like the demand/supply is fairly well balanced in that you don't have to wait months for an instrument to be made before you can purchase it.

There's also this thing called price elasticity that seeks to describe/model the effect of a price change on demand, so if a small change in price causes a disproportional change in demand, then there is a degree of price in-elasticity, and vice-versa. I think I've got that the right way around as I'm not an economist!

I suspect Fender, along with most other commercial organisations, are trying to find the price point just before any further price increases starts to affect demand in a non-linear way.

Fender can obviously trade on their history and brand name to keep their prices high (anybody seen a P&L for the Fender subsidiary - that would be quite revealing). Although when you look at some of the BBOT bridges they used (c.f. Rickenbacker awful bridges) then you could suspect that quality has not been the main driver for them in the past. I don't know what the newer high mass bridges are like though.

I think it would make for an excellent econimics project for an undergraduate!

[Lfalex v1.1]

What I find interesting about Fenders is that (for a long-running, mass-produced item) virtually no two are the same!
In terms of features, fit, finish, timber/parts, they all seem to exhibit some differences, and that's ignoring the place of manufacture, strings and any other aftermarket bits and bobs that have found their way onto them (Scratchplates, Bridges, EQs, etc.)

I have a 2004 MIA S1 Jazz with a nice 2-piece Ash body in Translucent Sunset Orange. It has thru-body stringing via a BBOT bridge and a rosewood fretboard.

I bought it new for £650 a couple of years back, and still consider it one of the best Jazzes I've played and also consider it to have been quite good value.
It's been strung with DR Sunbeams and sounds lovely.

It easily justifies its place in the collection, even though it's outnumbered by "better" basses.
In the end, you just have to seek out the right one for you.

Fortunately, there's so many and so much variety that there's bound to be one that's ideal.
Unfortunately, there's so many and so much variety that it may take some time....

[ead]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='1169701' date='Mar 20 2011, 05:07 PM']What I find interesting about Fenders is that (for a long-running, mass-produced item) virtually no two are the same!
In terms of features, fit, finish, timber/parts, they all seem to exhibit some differences, and that's ignoring the place of manufacture, strings and any other aftermarket bits and bobs that have found their way onto them (Scratchplates, Bridges, EQs, etc.)[/quote]

Hence my observation on quality not necessarily being top of the list. This could cause one to raise an eyebrow as most customer surveys show people rate quality and service abrove price.

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='1169701' date='Mar 20 2011, 05:07 PM']It easily justifies its place in the collection, even though it's outnumbered by "better" basses.
In the end, you just have to seek out the right one for you.

Fortunately, there's so many and so much variety that there's bound to be one that's ideal.
Unfortunately, there's so many and so much variety that it may take some time....[/quote]

Absolutely, each to their own I think.