Fanned frets

[Mikeg]

ive been looking at dingwall bass's and they sound amazing. But i dont fully understand the purpose of fanned frets.
Whatever they do they look rather cool

[markstuk]

[url="http://www.dingwallguitars.com/faqs/why-fanned-frets/"]http://www.dingwallguitars.com/faqs/why-fanned-frets/[/url]

[icastle]

[quote name='markstuk' post='1168503' date='Mar 19 2011, 05:15 PM'][url="http://www.dingwallguitars.com/faqs/why-fanned-frets/"]http://www.dingwallguitars.com/faqs/why-fanned-frets/[/url][/quote]

I like Number 5:

[quote]You will no longer be unheard and ignored by your audience due to the combination of the longer scale low strings and the even tonality across all the strings.[/quote]

No - you'll just be unheard and ignored by your audience because they're a bunch of b*st*rds who really don't like you very much...

[allihts]

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=84580&hl=fanned+frets"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...hl=fanned+frets[/url]

[pietruszka]

This may spark a bit of annoyance in some people, but!!

I think the fanned fret thing is a gimmick, its pointless. If the tonal differences were that noticeable then why doesn't every one make there basses like this? Its never been a problem before so why all of a sudden is it a problem now? How many people listen to a record and think "Hang on, that Eb on the A string is 1.354 Hz out from the Eb on the D string."


Still, I'd like to try one!




Dan

[thumbo]

I don't think it's a gimmick at all. I see this as a clever idea, as I've always hated slack-sounding low B's. I've not played one though, so I'm only talking "in theory" here!

[waynepunkdude]

Keeps your fingers cool when you're playing.

[Grand Wazoo]

[quote name='pietruszka' post='1169384' date='Mar 20 2011, 12:21 PM']This may spark a bit of annoyance in some people, but!!

I think the fanned fret thing is a gimmick, its pointless. If the tonal differences were that noticeable then why doesn't every one make there basses like this? Its never been a problem before so why all of a sudden is it a problem now? How many people listen to a record and think "Hang on, that Eb on the A string is 1.354 Hz out from the Eb on the D string."


Still, I'd like to try one!




Dan[/quote]

I won't even bother getting into this one... but I must say: Dan pointless, gimmick? I coud say the same your post which can be seen as pointless and I mean no haste nor offence to you, but before you can make a statement on something you admittedly haven't tried yet it would be advisable for you to try it first and then have at least some kind of knowledge and first hand experience to be in a justifiable position to make a valid judgement based on your opinion of it.

In other words the old saying goes "don't knock it 'til you've tried it"

[stingrayPete1977]

I have tried it can I knock it? Its one of those subjects that cant get past page one without the fireworks starting. Knocking it is an unfair response to anyone that has played them and gives their feelings on it.

The guard is always up so no matter who comments its starts the trouble for instance, I didnt find the B any better on Dave Swifts Dingwall to the GB Rumour B. They were both fantastic and in a blind test I would of said the GB had a more focussed sound, They were both better than my Ray5 B which is already good enough for many. Thats my opinion on the B in particular and as for a gimmick well they are sort of, Gimmick maybe unfair as that suggests they cant be used as a convetional bass at all which of course it can, More of a feature than a requirement maybe does that sound fair and constructive from someone that has played some? It does to me.

[pietruszka]

[quote name='Grand Wazoo' post='1169467' date='Mar 20 2011, 01:37 PM']I won't even bother getting into this one... but I must say: Dan pointless, gimmick? I coud say the same your post which can be seen as pointless and I mean no haste nor offence to you, but before you can make a statement on something you admittedly haven't tried yet it would be advisable for you to try it first and then have at least some kind of knowledge and first hand experience to be in a justifiable position to make a valid judgement based on your opinion of it.

In other words the old saying goes "don't knock it 'til you've tried it"[/quote]


Haha!! No worries, Im not in the slightest bit offended. This is of course my opinion. I would love to try one, but if the tension and tuning of each individual string was soo much of an issue then surely every bass manufacturer out there would be making them like this. That's my point.

I agree with the theory behind making them like this, it makes perfect sense, but has anyone ever noticed? I very much doubt it. Again this is the point I'm putting forward. I'v never felt that my 'normal' fretted basses ever had a individual note tuning problem to warrant getting a bass like the one mentioned in the OP to solve minute differences.

Again just my thoughts.




Dan

[ThomBassmonkey]

I've just got a Combustion (literally less than 2 hours ago) and it plays totally naturally. I had no problems playing it without concentrating straight away. Still trying to get used to the sound, I thought it was a little weak sounding at first, but taking off the pad and cranking my amp a little sorted that out. I still need to get a little more growl from the B string, but I've not fully had a chance to play with it yet (and I know there's a kit that can add more power to it if needed too).

[Grand Wazoo]

[quote name='pietruszka' post='1169508' date='Mar 20 2011, 02:14 PM']Haha!! No worries, Im not in the slightest bit offended. This is of course my opinion. I would love to try one, but if the tension and tuning of each individual string was soo much of an issue then surely every bass manufacturer out there would be making them like this. That's my point.

I agree with the theory behind making them like this, it makes perfect sense, but has anyone ever noticed? I very much doubt it. Again this is the point I'm putting forward. I'v never felt that my 'normal' fretted basses ever had a individual note tuning problem to warrant getting a bass like the one mentioned in the OP to solve minute differences.

Again just my thoughts.




Dan[/quote]

Well yes that is the part I was too tired to explain, I had a Bongo 5 strings they have 24 frets and built by Ernie Ball Music Man, these basses are supposed to be some of the best basses built by MM. Anyway I could adjust / tune the saddles so that the harmonic at the 12th fret would match exactly the fretted note at the 12th fret as well as the open string,... you with me so far? Well I couldn't help but noticing that fretting a note on the 15th fret will sound very sharp even after having sorted the intonation, the neck relief etc etc, I then connected the bass to a Peterson strobo tuner and it showed just how badly out of tune all the other notes on the fretboard are. I then tried that same test with a Stingray a Big Al and a 25th Anniversary MM, and all the other 5 strings basses I used to own plus a couple of Squier and a Fender CIJ all had that more or less the same issue, I decided to live with it. However I could tell when laying tracks through my headphones that some notes compared to keyboards, which always have perfect pitch, that they always sounded a bit sharp or out of tune.

As I've said I just decided to live with it and forget about it, I had read on some magazine or web about the principles of fanned frets but never in my mind I had expected those to be within my reach, as I had never seen one in a shop. Those are not the kind of basses that would be convenient to order sight unseen having had no experience whatsoever with them, then one day out of the blue I went to the Gallery Bass Merchant in Camden to try a Mark Bass compressor, I said to the man can I try a bass please with this pedal and all of a sudden I realised he had two Dingwalls in the store and I said, actually... if you don't mind can I try the compressor with one of those and it was the ABZ 5 strings which I currently owned, I also borrowed a tuner with the intention to verify the claims of the fanned fret system of more accurate pitch across the fingerboard, but soon as I plugged it in it was an incredible revelation, I was at that point where I suggested earlier that you should be, that I was actually trying it, and with my very own eyes and ears I could tell immediately even without the tuner plugged in that this bass was an incredible step forward compared to anything I have played in the last 30+ years. The tuner confirmed a very accurate pitch and even on higher frets the tuning is rendered as accurate as you would expect. There were other things I was scared of before trying this bass mainly I was afraid that actually playing fanned fret would present a problem to my tried and tested technique on parallel fret and that I wouldn't be able to feel comfortable and at ease with such a drastic change, so yeah I did have that reservation but I must admit it was really easy to adjust, and the only 2 places I had to relocate in my brain was the fretting of the lower strings (B and E) at 1st and 2nd frets which are obviously higher in position than they appear on the G string, but even that with a little time ironed itself and within less than 20 minutes I was perfectly at home, like learning to ride a different bike or something. It can be done and once you "got it" it's a breeze and some say even more natural to the way in which our fingers span out. The ABZ 5 had also some very nice features like the thinnest neck and the lowest action without fret buzz that I had ever come across in my life, which made the playing and fretting even more natural and effortless, the moral of the story is that, there and then I called Alex to one side and flashed the cash, I said I am taking this bass home with me, so please give me a nice price and he did. His price was very competitive, I must say I also tried the made in China Combustion that they had but while it still sounded good it didn't feel as easy to play as the ABZ did and it was a lyme green colour which I disliked and the extra £200 for the price of the ABZ I found to be more than justified.

Of course once I took this Dingwall home, it became my main bass and all the other Ernie Ball MM's 5 strings became embarrassing to own in comparison, recently Ernie Ball are fitting "compensated nuts" to their guitars and basses but the whole concept is flawed and utter bollox, in that they only make a minimum degree of positive difference to the open string only, the minute you fret a note the compensated nut is out of the equation, to me the EBMM's just didn't match the quality and ease of playing of a Dingwall to the point in which I decided that owning them was only burning pound £ value by the minute, and so without batting an eyelid I quickly flogged the lot (4 of them) and put the money towards 2 more Ding's, an active / passive ABII and a Super J 5. I am done now until something better is presented to me worthy of a change.

In conclusion: to answer your question as to why more companies do not adopt a similar system, the answer is probably because the majority of people are too conservative to explore unchartered territories and that it will take time for the fanned fret system to be adopted by more companies and be more widely accepted. I say, give it another 5 to 10 years and I am sure you'll see more of these appearing on the scene

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Grand Wazoo' post='1169582' date='Mar 20 2011, 03:25 PM']In conclusion: to answer your question as to why more companies do not adopt a similar system, the answer is probably because the majority of people are too conservative to explore unchartered territories and that it will take time for the fanned fret system to be adopted by more companies and be more widely accepted. I say, give it another 5 to 10 years and I am sure you'll see more of these appearing on the scene[/quote]

They've been around since the '80s at least haven't they? I think the reason there's no demand for them is because nobody's really that bothered about solving such a minor problem, especially not with such a sledgehammer solution.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Grand Wazoo' post='1169582' date='Mar 20 2011, 03:25 PM']However I could tell when laying tracks through my headphones that some notes compared to keyboards, which always have perfect pitch, that they always sounded a bit sharp or out of tune.

Of course once I took this Dingwall home, it became my main bass and all the other Ernie Ball MM's 5 strings became embarrassing to own in comparison,[/quote]

This is why I play a bass rather than a keyboard though, If it were all perfect it would sound like sterile computer generated crap!

As for owning an MM being embarassing to own in comparison thats just childish, Not just as a supposed MM fanboi I would feel the same if you said Ibanez,Fender etc It makes you sound silly IMO I would have a version of all types and era of bass if time ,money and space were available. Thrashing a P bass with a Pick or slapping an old Jazz etc all make me play differently so the idea of this perfect feeling and sounding bass is becoming more of a session players (a'la Dave Swift) bass to me than anything else.

Beautifully made and versatile but sterile and a [i]bit[/i] gimmicky then is my diagnosis!

[ZMech]

[quote name='Grand Wazoo' post='1169582' date='Mar 20 2011, 03:25 PM']Well yes that is the part I was too tired to explain, I had a Bongo 5 strings they have 24 frets and built by Ernie Ball Music Man, these basses are supposed to be some of the best basses built by MM. Anyway I could adjust / tune the saddles so that the harmonic at the 12th fret would match exactly the fretted note at the 12th fret as well as the open string,... you with me so far? Well I couldn't help but noticing that fretting a note on the 15th fret will sound very sharp even after having sorted the intonation, the neck relief etc etc, I then connected the bass to a Peterson strobo tuner and it showed just how badly out of tune all the other notes on the fretboard are. I then tried that same test with a Stingray a Big Al and a 25th Anniversary MM, and all the other 5 strings basses I used to own plus a couple of Squier and a Fender CIJ all had that more or less the same issue, I decided to live with it. However I could tell when laying tracks through my headphones that some notes compared to keyboards, which always have perfect pitch, that they always sounded a bit sharp or out of tune.[/quote]

That's an issue with the fret wire being in the completely wrong place then, which is pretty suprising, since fret spacing is a simple exponential decrease. Changing the frets to be fanned wouldn't solve this problem. Mind you, I just tune by ear so might just not be noticing.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Zach

[Grand Wazoo]

[quote name='Zach' post='1169626' date='Mar 20 2011, 04:06 PM']That's an issue with the fret wire being in the completely wrong place then, which is pretty suprising, since fret spacing is a simple exponential decrease. Changing the frets to be fanned wouldn't solve this problem. Mind you, I just tune by ear so might just not be noticing.[/quote]

Yeah and with people wearing blinkers

[Doddy]

Correct me if I'm wrong,but surely the fanned frets are a solution to string tension rather than tuning?

It's not like the Buzz Feiten system or the Ibanez and Yamaha wavey fret thing. It's just a way of
increasing the tension of the lower strings.

[Duarte]

[quote name='Grand Wazoo' post='1169582' date='Mar 20 2011, 03:25 PM']Of course once I took this Dingwall home, it became my main bass and all the other Ernie Ball MM's 5 strings became embarrassing to own in comparison, recently Ernie Ball are fitting "compensated nuts" to their guitars and basses but the whole concept is flawed and utter bollox,[/quote]
That Dingwall must be ABSOLUTLEY f***ing amazing. I remember your raving essay reviews of those MM basses...


[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1169604' date='Mar 20 2011, 03:41 PM']They've been around since the '80s at least haven't they? I think the reason there's no demand for them is because nobody's really that bothered about solving such a minor problem, especially not with such a sledgehammer solution.[/quote]
I agree with this.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Duarte

[Doddy]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1169672' date='Mar 20 2011, 04:38 PM']Actually the perfect intonation thing has been sorted (at least on guitars) and is a tad weird looking.

[url="http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php?go=0&sgo=0"]http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php?go=0&sgo=0[/url]

I can't see how the fanned fret gives perfect intonation across all strings at all frets. The notes aren't in exact enough place across all frets and all strings to do that and even if they did a change of string guage would bugger it all up again.. There still has to be a bit of give and take somewhere down the line.

I would like to try a fanned fret though even if only for the ergonomic benefits .[/quote]

That's what Vai's been using on his Ibanez. That's what I meant when I said about the wavey fret thing.
Yamaha tried a similar thing,though less extreme,on the Frank Gambale model.

[thisnameistaken]

Are there ergonomic benefits to extending the scale length of the bass guitar by a couple of inches? They're already too big for most humans to use comfortably.

[stingrayPete1977]

I understand the principles of the fanned fret system and how it does do what its meant to but Im sure GW will be along to explain it better than I ever could but its still a very minor issue for 99.999999999% of the bass playing community from beginners to pro's the world over so I dont see that as anyone being blinkered or anyone waiting to come around to it really. Then coupled to the fact some people like the sound of a particular make and model of bass (you all know what I like ) and everyone has there favourite ones all those would have to be made available in a fanned version. I prefer the sound of a Ray to all Jazz basses from a Fender to GW's Dingwall and all inbetween so I wouldnt swap anyway.
See how I have talked myself into the anti fanned fret mob again? Im not at all and happy for whoever to play whatever but a[i] tiny tiny [/i]intonation issue compared to some of the greatest basses in the world for me does not make me feel as though they should be embarrased in its company IMO Like I said before Bernies GB Rumours sounded better overall than the Dingwall to me (and a few others that were there but its not for me to name names) so the intonation issue (If there is a real issue there) would come second to that anyway for me.

[waynepunkdude]

In my opinion it's the cure to a problem no one cares about.

[Machines]

I sense a proper reply coming.

[waynepunkdude]

I can can see Sheldon typing away too.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='1169690' date='Mar 20 2011, 04:56 PM']In my opinion it's the cure to a problem no one cares about.[/quote]

Lol.

I can see why people love Dingwalls, but I can't really see what the huge problem is that we need to cure?!

The past few weeks I've started to play a lot more than be on here, and believe me I very much doubt anyone noticed all the very small minor issues we discuss.

If the bass sounds good, looks good, is well made just enjoy it

Ps I actually really like some of the Dingwall bodyshapes...I'm not arguing either way.