Fanned frets

[guybrush threepwood]

[quote name='Sheldon Dingwall']Intonation: It's better, in some cases a lot better, but I think that's more of a scale length thing than the fanned-frets themselves.[/quote]

[quote name='Sheldon Dingwall']In our own experiments with 35" vs 37" (we offer both)[/quote]

I don't quite understand this mate - wouldn't the scale length on the G be 32" if the B was 35"? So how can a scale length that is so different for each string improve intonation? Not doubting you or anything, just maybe I'm missing something. Is the intonation issue, with which Grand Wazoo had such a massive dilemma, an inherent problem with basses that have a standard 34" scale length?

Edited March 20, 2011 by guybrush threepwood

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='guybrush threepwood' post='1170217' date='Mar 20 2011, 11:18 PM']Is the intonation issue, with which Grand Wazoo had such a massive dilemma, an inherent problem with basses that have a standard 34" scale length?[/quote]

It isn't, at least not compared to a 'typical' fanned fret system. The intonation wrt fanned frets is something of a red herring, though I expect the build quality and set-up of the Dingwalls means they're better than a lot of other production basses. The issue with the bongo that GW cited is more likely to relate to set-up and/or build quality. Alterations to neck relief, action height and bridge string spacing will all affect how well a bass intonates for a given fret spacing pattern. If you go shorter scale, these factors become more critical and you have a smaller acceptable window of adjustments, but as long as you stay within it, no major issues.

[guybrush threepwood]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1170233' date='Mar 20 2011, 11:43 PM']It isn't, at least not compared to a 'typical' fanned fret system. The intonation wrt fanned frets is something of a red herring, though I expect the build quality and set-up of the Dingwalls means they're better than a lot of other production basses. The issue with the bongo that GW cited is more likely to relate to set-up and/or build quality. Alterations to neck relief, action height and bridge string spacing will all affect how well a bass intonates for a given fret spacing pattern. If you go shorter scale, these factors become more critical and you have a smaller acceptable window of adjustments, but as long as you stay within it, no major issues.[/quote]

Ahh, ok I see. It's just the intonation benefits were being talked about, and I couldn't see any specific scientific reason for them, (in the context of fanned frets being the deciding factor). The high build quality definitely makes sense though; the only bass I've ever had a problem with intonation on had a warped neck!

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='guybrush threepwood' post='1170236' date='Mar 21 2011, 12:04 AM']Ahh, ok I see. It's just the intonation benefits were being talked about, and I couldn't see any specific scientific reason for them, (in the context of fanned frets being the deciding factor). The high build quality definitely makes sense though; the only bass I've ever had a problem with intonation on had a warped neck![/quote]

I guess there is a possible benefit due to the effective speaking length of the string differing with thickness, which you might be able to compensate for to an extent (not entirely unless you used more complicated fret shapes) in the fanned frets - but accuracy would still be dependent on string type/gauge etc and I'd have thought the differences would be so very very marginal, as to be negligible compared to small differences in set-up.

[EBS_freak]

I bet Sheldon gets this on every thread that is ever created with the word, "fanned" and "frets" in.

I've read this thread with much interest and I'm still baffled by all the viewpoints on here.

Before I begin, I shall make a statement which I subscribe to: "At this level, there is no better, just different." This applies to most everything in the bass world and is appropriate for use in many threads.

Furthering on from this, we can question whether we need to spend so much money to get a boutique bass (I won't focus upon this, this has been talked about ad nauseum) for a certain level of performance - afterall, the workhorse jazz bass was good enough for Jaco and still remains the choice of guys like Marcus, and many, many pro players with exceptional musicality as well as blinding technique (lets not forget there are some people who can perform advanced techniques on some very cheap instruments). The majority of basses out there do not use fanned frets. As stated before, the fanned fret concept is not a new thing; its been around since the 80s yet still hasn't caught on as much as you would expect - given that people claim that it is such an improvement over the standard, traditional layout.

As an example, which is better? Active or passive? Well, it depends upon what you are looking for. If you want an active sound, you need to go active. If you want a passive, then obviously, go passive. Those in the know, know that a passive/active switchable circuit is a half way house. The tone pot values for an active circuit do not lend themself to a passive... and maybe should be seen as a "get out of jail free... for when your batteries or active circuit fail". What am I talking about this for? Well, the same thing goes for fanned frets... playing chords is a bit of a nightmare at points on the fanned fret neck... and if you think that the stretch on Portrait of Tracey is bad on a 35" scale, try it on one of Sheldon's basses! But that's the point, you select the correct bass for the job. Obviously, you wouldn't reach for a Dingwall if that is what you are playing... hence there should be space for other instruments in your collection.

So, lets look at fanned frets. I don't buy the intonation thing at all. Try telling Macca that intonation has hindered his bass playing career. OK, maybe you can't get the thing intonated as well as basses with compensated nuts, fully adjustable bridges... but has it been a stumbling point for the listeners? or the players for that matter? His record sales certainly don't appear to suggest that. (For those that don't know, a Hofner violin has a set bridge, that you can't intonate... and is short scale to boot!). Furthermore, the fact that you have relief in your neck and if you have have a medium or high action, you are going to influence your tuning, fanned frets or not, purely because your strings aren't parallel with the neck. (Fret spacing is set assuming a perfectly flat neck with a perfectly parallel string). Now add to the fact that's strings stretch, the pitch will change as a string is fretted and as it is vibrating. This is fact - check it with an accurate tuner to see.

Whether you lengthen the scale length, or shorten the scale length, this is all applicable. Even if you have the whole perfect intonation fret approach (with all the slightly offset weird looking frets), the way that the string lies against these frets

is going to influence tuning. At best, you are only going to get an approximation of something that is perfectly in tune.

OK, fanned frets do change the feel of the string - and this is where I feel the main benefit comes in. I think doddy said it all. It's not a solution to a tuning problem because regardless of the scale, the frets are all placed in accordance to the scale length. If you increase the scale length, the problem doesn't go away because relative to the scale length, the fret is still in exactly the same position. All 5 and 6 players (or 4 players who play with a low B ) will have felt a bass with a floppy B. Some basses have a more noticably floppy B than others which obviously can be less than desirable. Again, this is further influenced by the string type... The fact that the fanned fret supposidly gives a greater clarity than a standard fretted neck is definately open to discussion. Let's forget fanned frets systems for a while. Everybody (I'm assuming) has played a range of 4 string basses. Let's look at the jazz bass for example. A standard, 4 string, 34" scale jazz bass. All jazz basses are not the same; some sound dead, some sound lively, some play nicely, some don't. Some have strings that feel loose, some will sustain for years, some will give notes that die straight off. Added to the fact that alot of this can come from human perception, you can see that there are a lot of variables. Let start thinking about high mass bridges vs bent bits of tin, active circuits vs passive, bolt on necks (and how they are attached) vs through neck. Even the wood (and if you have graphite rods in the neck - even people say dual action truss rods influence your tone!) will effect the performance and tone of a bass - it's getting all these attributes working in harmony with each other that makes a great bass. Despite what any luthier may say, you can never tell what a bass will sound like until it's up and built - hell, even a pair of "identical" pickups can sound different and that's before you take into account the rest of the bass. The only manufacturers I can think of who stand half a chance of getting identical sounding bassses are the carbon fibre lot (of course, they are still at the mercy of the pickups! - nb, scatterwound is accepted as producing a more pleasing tone - but of course adds further chaos into getting identical pickups!). As LawrenceH said, you need to compare a number of two like for like basses (only difference being fanned frets) to get an appreciation of the real differences.

My belief is that the clarity of the B is mostly due to the ability of the pickup (and circuit if applicable) to sense the movement of the string and provide the output to the amplifier. I was there when Pete compared Dave Swift's Dingwall and GB B string. It was quiet at that point - and we all were surprised at how "normal" the bottom B of the Dingwall sounded. Regardless of being in a quiet environment or not - not having the clarity or definition defeats the point of having a solid B that cuts through if you need a quiet environment to cut through! I think the main reason there was such a difference in the B was down to the pickups and preamp. It would be interesting to compare a bass that has the same pickups and circuit as the Dingwall with a Dingwall to see the differences again. I think in the case at the bass show, there was very little in common with the two basses - scale length, through neck, pickups and circuits...

I'd like to hear a piezo on Dingwall - positioned at the bridge, that should *theoretically* be the best place to get the best defined bottom B out of an instrument.

Anyway, if you think a fanned fretted system is great... then great - but then again, this doesn't mean that all the other basses out there without franned frets aren't great aren't great or even superior to those with fanned frets. Maybe it's a solution to a problem that nobody else really had...? Let your hands and ears do the research... physics is great - but doesn't take into account the differences in pickups or composition of wood for instance. As Pete said earlier, see it as a feature rather than a requirement of a bass.

I think Sheldon's basses are great - they are certainly different and for some, the looks alone would be enough to get one. After spending some time with a few examples, they are a top class instrument with a great build quality and defo one that should be checked out. If I had money to burn, I'd have one for sure. Hell, I'd have two. Or three.

Grand Wazoo - it's great that you've found your brand but you shouldn't poo poo people's experiences or comments because a lot of this can be psychological, whether it be basses, amps, cabs or anything! How do we know that a Dingwall owner's perception of what is a tight sounding B is correct? - everybody has a honeymoon period when it comes to gear. How can you quantify the differences? In contrast to your experiences with your MMs, when I got my Stroborack, I did a very similar test to you, and was surprised at how in tune my basses are up the neck... but then again, I play with a ridiculously low action (which helps to avoid the tuning issues due to string alignment along the neck as discussed earlier) and am anal when it comes to intonation as I can't stand hearing out of tune chords on my bass. Oh and I wouldn't say owning a MM is embarassing in any means of the word - your Dingwall can't sound like a MM. If your gig requires a Stingray sound, you are pretty much stumped. PS, this isn't meant to be personal - I don't want this thread to disolve into a slagging match!

Edited March 21, 2011 by EBS_freak

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='1171003' date='Mar 21 2011, 06:07 PM']For those that don't know, a Hofner violin has a set bridge, that you can't intonate.[/quote]

No intention to challenge the overall thrust of your post (most of which went way over my head anyway) but this isn't quite true.

General intonation on Hofner basses is by way of the floating bridge, which can be moved to the point at which intonation is [i][b]approximately [/b][/i]correct for all four strings. I emphasise [i]approximately [/i]for good reason.

For fine® tuning, have a look at this.



This isn't a great photo but I think you can see the little metal strips that each string rests on. Those can be slotted into the different grooves on the top of the bridge to provide at least some fine tuning of intonation ... the 'staggered' effect in the way this bridge has been set up is not some sort of requirement, it's just the way this particular instrument has been intonated.

In truth, intonation will almost certainly never be spot on with such a crude set-up, but with flats on a shortscale it can be close enough for it not to matter. Especially when the whole band is playing through a single 17W WEM Dominator.

Now if you'd made that comment about a solid-bodied Hofner ...

Edited March 21, 2011 by Happy Jack

[EBS_freak]

I'm happy to stand corrected; I thought that all Hofners were like the latter! The violin bass is both crude yet quite an elegant solution... Now to find a isolated bass recording of Penny Lane to see how far the intonation is out up the neck*...

*if I could give a ....

Edited March 21, 2011 by EBS_freak

[ThomBassmonkey]

I got a Dingwall Combustion yesterday, the things I've taken from it so far:

The strings feel great. They're seriously even in tension, no floppy B strings here. Acoustically the strings sound more even too (on most basses I've played, the lower strings sound bassier, even playing the same note).

On a negative, the B string doesn't sound great, the whole thing has very low output. Both of these I put down to the electrics. Neither are enough to really turn me off the bass, but it definitely goes to show there's more going on with the low B than scale length. Sheldon's made some kits available that help with the problem on the B string and pickup replacements are available that should fix it, so it's obviously a noted issue.

I've been through different phases with how I view Dingwalls from loving the concept to thinking it's pointless and a gimmick. I decided the only way I was really going to find out was to try it for myself so I jumped at the chance when I got offered one in a trade. I only got it yesterday and it's only had one quiet gig today, I think the problem with volume and B power won't be as much of an issue if I can crank my GK a bit (and if I replace the electrics it should be fine anyway) but at the moment I'm really enjoying how it plays. Despite having played a 35" scale for 8 years and 34" for the last year, I still easily notice the difference in tension between the different strings, this helps a lot with that. If I can get it to sound right, it's definitely a keeper based on the feel of it.

My 34" Sandberg JJ5 sounds great though, every note is defined right down to the low B, the string tension is alright (obviously a 34" B has less tension than a 37" B, but it's never caused me problems). I'm going to keep playing with my Dingwall because it feels so nice to play and hope that I can resolve the electrics issue.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1171055' date='Mar 21 2011, 06:43 PM']IIRC and if it's the same as my clone the bridge is actually a floating bridge. It just sits on top of the body and you can move it about by hand even with tension on the strings you can tap it about. Take the strings off and it falls off.

The wee strips can be moved about, I've seen some where they have them lined up and the whole bridge skewed.

Just as an aside the intonation on mine is perfect across all four at the 12th just set the E and G and the rest fell into place.. Crude but works.[/quote]

Ah yeah, OK, that would work... bit of a ballache though, I still like my adjustable individual saddles.

Talking of Hofners, I contemplated ordering one last year but have yet to think of a reason to justify one. You don't need a reason to justify anything though right?

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='1171044' date='Mar 21 2011, 06:35 PM']I'm happy to stand corrected; I thought that all Hofners were like the latter! The violin bass is both crude yet quite an elegant solution... Now to find a isolated bass recording of Penny Lane to see how far the intonation is out up the neck*...

*if I could give a ....[/quote]

You wouldn't learn much anyway.

He was playing a Rickenbacker by then ...

[stingrayPete1977]

I wonder how much of this becomes a problem once you get a strobo tuner? What I would class as intonated and I bet a lot of others here would be surprised how far out that is on the strobe, It's like driving a car for ages then when the mot guy points something out you drive it home with milk floats passing you! Lesson is don't buy a strobo

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1171074' date='Mar 21 2011, 06:50 PM']You wouldn't learn much anyway.

He was playing a Rickenbacker by then ...[/quote]

Ha ha. Perhaps my Macca reference was a bad example

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1171098' date='Mar 21 2011, 06:59 PM']Yeah but you need a screwdriver the Hofner is screwless technology and every one can find a make shift tapping stick in any scenario. See it's better no tool box required [/quote]

Bloomin' Germans think of everything.

[ThomBassmonkey]

The intonation thing probably isn't that big a deal. The longer the string, the more room for error there is. If your intonation's out by 1mm on a 34" string, it'll be more noticable than if it's out by 1mm on a 37" string. In saying that, it probably won't be that much of an issue for single notes on either unless you're playing chords, which you'd probably only be doing on the hgiher (i.e. shorter) strings anyway. Most of the biggest artists ever have had fixed length basses, it can't be that much of an issue.

Things that affect individual strings (intonation, tuning stability, tension etc) are the same age old debates that have been going on for years, is a 36" scale better than a 34"? It's all tastes.

Things that affect strings relative to each other is relative string tension, relative timbre etc. IMO, those are improved on a fanned fret bass. Does it make them better? Nope. Does it make it an option worth looking at and considering? Definitely. Does it mean I'm going to ditch my 34" jazz bass and make my combustion my main player? Who knows.

[charic]

In standard tuning my ACG holds its intonation right up to the 24th fret on all strings...

In drop C it struggles though. Hopefully that'll be fixed soon mind!

Also I love Dingwalls, in particular the Super J5. If ever I have the money for one I'm getting one!!!

White, black guard, maple neck, black blocks and white headstock!

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

[xgsjx]

I tried a couple of Dingwalls out @ 5 years ago in Ed Romans & really wanted one. It was just under $3k, which would have been @ £1400 in 2006 &that was for a 5 string Afterburner with wooden pots. I really wish I would have bought it back then (I had the spare pennies too!).

I'm curious to see how folk will get on with an unlined fretless.

[xgsjx]

According to the Dingwall website, they do a fretless option. Whether it's lined or not I have no idea as I couldn't find any pics on the site.

[ThomBassmonkey]

They're lined, but rather you than me.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1171841' date='Mar 22 2011, 10:32 AM']

They're lined, but rather you than me. [/quote]
Nah, Toooo easy! There's no challenge in that.

Needs to be an unlined.

[Sheldon Dingwall]

[quote name='guybrush threepwood' post='1170217' date='Mar 20 2011, 05:18 PM']I don't quite understand this mate - wouldn't the scale length on the G be 32" if the B was 35"? So how can a scale length that is so different for each string improve intonation? Not doubting you or anything, just maybe I'm missing something. Is the intonation issue, with which Grand Wazoo had such a massive dilemma, an inherent problem with basses that have a standard 34" scale length?[/quote]

I should clear this up. Intonation issues are pretty much only a problem on the lower strings, the higher strings are usually fine. A longer scale helps the lower strings overcome intonation issues and sound more pure. Not fanned-frets.

What fanned-frets do is allow you to have a longer speaking length on the lower strings where it's needed - at least according to some people here - mainly the good looking ones while leaving the higher strings at a more "normal" speaking length.

Since intonation has been brought up a lot here, I'll offer a quick thought because intonation is WAY more than just the note playing in tune according to your tuner. I think it's important to look at how in-tune the string is with itself. Stiff, heavy strings don't produce short high frequency harmonics well. Lighter more flexible strings do, but if the tension is too low will be pitchy Pitchy meaning when you attack the string hard, the pitch goes noticeably sharp and with a normal attack the fundamental may be in tune but the harmonics are sharp and dissonant. I've heard some B-strings sound so dissonant you could hear the harmonics fighting the fundamental at the 5th fret.

[Doddy]

So,if you've got say,a 35" scale,the intonation will theoretically be slightly better on the lower strings than on a
a standard 34"?


I must say,I think it's cool that Sheldon is happy to come on here and talk about the details and reasoning behind his
instruments. Fair play...I wish more manufacturers were this open. (now to get Gard from Roscoe to come over from
Talkbass).

[Sheldon Dingwall]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1173857' date='Mar 23 2011, 02:49 PM']So,if you've got say,a 35" scale,the intonation will theoretically be slightly better on the lower strings than on a
a standard 34"?[/quote]

That's exactly what I'm saying. With emphasis on slight and intonation in terms of the harmonics being more intune with the fundamental.

In the piano world there are no pickups or electronics to post process the tone. They've basically got a soundboard, soundbox and speaking length to work with. The speaking length is a huge part of the tone of a concert grand.