Help! my band sounds crap live!

[MartyBRebelMC]

Does anyone have a good idea of how to get a good balance of sound in a pub?

we have 2 guitars, female vocals, drums and bass.

It's the old problem everything sounds fine on its own but when it comes together it's a cluttered noise. My guess is the guitars are kicking out too much mid low and clagging up the sound but before i annoy the guitarists by telling them how to eq their amps does anyone have any tips for getting a good mix?

Martin

[dbass]

I share your pain!

Used to happen a lot with old bands until you just go "Look - turn the fooking bass down from 10 on your amp as that is what I am here for"

Cleaned the sound up lovely!

[ThomBassmonkey]

It's hard to make suggestions without hearing, if it sounds like a mess then there's probably two things going on.

You're too loud. If you're playing small venues and no one really understands EQing as a band, chances are that the volume is going to be too loud too.

EQing is fairly obvious when you talk about it, your bass should be EQd for the lower frequencies, rhythm guitar higher and lead instruments more trebly (within reason), it's much harder to actually do though. Try and play one instrument at the time, so start off with drums. Then add in bass, you should try and be bassy, but without being muddy and with enough mids and treble so your notes are all defined. Then add in the rhythm guitar, try and EQ it so that it sounds very fat in the mix, enough bass to fill out the sound but not so much that it interferes with you, mids and treble need to be there so that it fills out the whole sound. Then the lead guitar needs to sit on top, still enough bass that it doesn't sound weak, but it should sit a higher in frequencies than the rhythm guitar.

You want to balance the whole thing around your vocals though, vocals are the main thing that people listen to in bands, if your singer has a very high pitched voice, she should be sat around the lead guitar's EQ. If she sings a bit deeper, you could make space between the rhythm and lead and EQ the lead slightly higher.

Without hearing your band, especially hearing it live, it's very hard to tell, but that's a basic way to work it out.

[MartyBRebelMC]

thanks for the advice guys,

Firstly - yes we are too loud mainly due to the drums

The vocals and drums are usually the only things that are defined, I feel the bass and guitars are the real problem, but not sure how to resolve this, I agree logic suggests an ascending hierarchy of frequency from bass to lead and will push to try this out at the next gig. I should mention our rhythm guitarist uses a Marshall half stack (when I rule the world all Marshall 4X12s will be burnt!!!!) so controlling the amount of bass from that is difficult, but will again try hard to get him to roll off the bass.

[BottomE]

[quote name='MartyBRebelMC' post='1170791' date='Mar 21 2011, 03:50 PM']thanks for the advice guys,

Firstly - yes we are too loud mainly due to the drums

The vocals and drums are usually the only things that are defined, I feel the bass and guitars are the real problem, but not sure how to resolve this, I agree logic suggests an ascending hierarchy of frequency from bass to lead and will push to try this out at the next gig. I should mention our rhythm guitarist uses a Marshall half stack (when I rule the world all Marshall 4X12s will be burnt!!!!) so controlling the amount of bass from that is difficult, but will again try hard to get him to roll off the bass.[/quote]
Practice playing quietly at rehearsals. I once saw a guy called Roy Ayers and his band would do this thing where they could suddenly alter the dynamic. It was still funky as anything but it demonstrated an amazing ability to still be tight and sound full at the same time. I was lucky enough to meet him after and asked him about it - he looked at me surprised when i asked them how they did this - "practice" he said.

[ThomBassmonkey]

Large cabs don't have to be loud, if your guitarist invests in an attenuator he can turn down his volume without losing any of the tone. Depending on what head he has, the EQ isn't always so bad on them.

I used to play in a band where one guitarist had a TSL with a 4x12, it was always loud but even without the attenuator, we still managed to get a decent sound.

At band practice sometime, you could set all your amps up along one wall (preferably the same wall as the PA speakers and drummer) and all (apart from the drummer of course) stand at the opposite end of the room and see if you can get a nice sound in there. Obviously gigs are going to be slightly different, but it's a good start.

[Low End Bee]

I had the Orange Terror at 1.5 out of 10 on the volume control on Friday night. The Guitarist turned down a lot too.
Sounded great and we're a rock band. Don't be afraid to cut the volume.
It's possible you may have one guitarist too many. This was a problem in the last band. Rhythm bloke chugging away in the low mid zone adding absolutely nothing except a kind of aural stodgy soup.

[51m0n]

Guitarists generally and genuinely believe that guitar sounds best when everything is dimed.

Whilst a noble thought it is utter tosh.

Fletcher Munsen curves dicatate that as the volume gets greater the sound that was super in the doudouir is way too bassy and trebly at the gig.

A half stack is total overkill for a pub gig, even a 212 is a lot more than really required, and will suffer from beaming and phase cancellation.

First thing is to see if you cant tune the drums better. Really, if you tune them really well they will be immensely loud in a small space, but thats fine, I've never heard a band in a pub with unmiced drums that really were too loud. Honestly. The rest of the band do need to work as a team to not degenerate into a volume war though.

You will be causing the same issues with your eq too.

Flatten your eq completely.

Get the drums going and turn up the bass to war volume to match. Check you can actually hear the kick drum against you out in the room - now go and turn down until you can. Thats right, you were almost certainly too loud for the kick.

Now tweak the eq (tweak is the operative word) to go in the direction of 'your' sound.

Bring up the rhythm guitar rig (flat eq!), dont let them touch their eq, you do it, you want lower mids not treble and bass, a hint of treble presence will do, and some low mid (for guitar) for body. Remember you need a whole for the lead guitar, carve it out of the rhythm guitar. It need not sound like anything but awful on its own, it isnt going to be heard on its own after all.

Bring up the lead guitar, this needs to be treated carefully to slot into the space you cut out of the rhythm guitar, and again not get into your area, a bit more treble, and a bit of bass can be a good thing, but not enough bass to hurt your sound. The lead gutarist also needs to understand that if they are working as a second rhythm guitar under the vocals they need to lose some presence AND some volume.

Check you can really hear the snare, the rhythm and the lead and the bass as seperate entities, if the guitars both chug a rhythm on an E chord you should clearly hear the snare and the kick, if you join in then you should still hear the kick and snare. People always bang on about how loud they need to be because of the drummer, but in my experience, even a loud rock drummer doesnt compete with a modern bass rig without being mic'ed too. They never really competed with a half stack at all. In other words you arent competing with him, you are probably drowning him out. This isn't obvious at all in a small rehearsal room, but put the kit in a bigger pub venue and its easy to completely swamp the kick with bass or guitar.

Now properly eq'ed a vocal should slide right over the top of all of this, and with a decent graphic on a feed t oa decent monitor you should be able to avoid any feedback.

[Happy Jack]

Like any other problem, the first step towards a solution is to admit - and get the others to admit - that there IS a problem.

Beg, borrow or steal a simple digital recorder (I use the Zoom H2) and record your next gig. If you sound as bad as you think, it will be dead obvious when you play it back to the others.

If they're the sort to react with "[i]Yeh, well it's a crap recorder that's making us sound crap[/i]" then take your recorder along to a decent pub band gig and record that too. I used Sibob's covers band (Recover) for exactly that purpose, when my keyboard player started giving me grief for complaining about his playing.

If you can rehearse at gig volume, then a digital recorder can also give you instant feedback as to how you really sound. You can plug it through the PA in the rehearsal studio and let everyone hear what the problem is.

Edit: If you've got an answer from 51m0n (above) go with that!

Edited March 21, 2011 by Happy Jack

[ThomBassmonkey]

Oh and something that's obvious that we've all forgotten to mention is get in a sound guy that you know is good and not afraid to critisise and get him to listen and give advice.

Even if you have to pay for him to come in for one night, if you sound terrible then you won't get re-booked and people won't want to buy CDs or come see you again. Paying for a soundguy to come sort your sound out for one night could mean more gigs and more merch sales.

There's a guy in Derby that works a venue we play regularly, I'd almost trust him over my own judgement in terms of what sounds best. Whenever something new gets introduced (new gear or sounds) I always ask his opinion. He's always constructive and if he ever has any negative feedback, I always look at what he's said and see what I can do to fix it.

[Gust0o]

We record ourselves at every rehearsal - sure, it sounds great when you're in the midst of all that noise, and imaging you're some kind of rock god; very sobering to listen back later, and it reveals a lot about what you actually sound like.

51mOn has some great tips, which I think I'll be borrowing myself! Interesting on the use of the flat EQ for the set-up. I guess that's the best baseline (bass line, eh?) for bringing all the instruments together. I think I would, left to my own devices, have gone down the route of rolling the bass off the guitarists - that's what you're there for, after all, and it's the one thing they think they need in spades.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Gust0o' post='1170852' date='Mar 21 2011, 04:33 PM']I think I would, left to my own devices, have gone down the route of rolling the bass off the guitarists - that's what you're there for, after all, and it's the one thing they think they need in spades.[/quote]

+1

I need a re-think too.

[SteveK]

[quote name='MartyBRebelMC' post='1170756' date='Mar 21 2011, 03:09 PM']My guess is the guitars are kicking out too much mid low and clagging up the sound but before i annoy the guitarists by telling them how to eq their amps does anyone have any tips for getting a good mix?

Martin[/quote]
Yeah, ask your guitarists to reduce the lower mids to stop clagging up the sound.

Seriously though, if that's where you think the problem lies, then that would be the place to start. Get yourselves some extra long guitar leads and take it in turns to go out front and take an objective listen.

A question: Do your guitarists use effects? There's nothing worse than over processing for "clagging up the sound".

[51m0n]

I used to help out with sound at the local music service when they did their shows for the parents at the end of a term.

They had a guitar lesson with something like 18 guitars in. Each young dude had his 'axe' and a little marshal 112 2 channel amp.

They would all turn up and crank their amp settings (the treble goes to 11 man, it must be better!)

The guitar teacher would tell them that it wasnt their fault, you couldnt make these amps sound good.

It was hellish.

Plux used to go along to play bass for them (poor chap!)

Anyway when I got involved I asked if they would mind me setting up the amps, said teacher said fine, but they will all sound rubbish whatever you do, they are nasty marshals....

I set them one at a time, from flat. I asked each guitarist to select their favourite pickup combination then back the volume off to two thirds. I set a hint of drive, just breaking up really, turned the treble down on most, and the mids up a bit, left the abss flat or even slightly backed off.

Each 'dude' had a solo in turn (yup 18 guitar solos one after another - not pretty), where they would bring their volume on the guitar up to full, after their solo they just took it back down.

Each amp actually sounded pretty nice like this solo'ed, worked great with the bass and drums and poked over the top for each solo.

The combination of 18 amps running like this was a fantastic sound, really fat, especially for the Stones track they covered.

It was loud too, but controlled.

Oh and this took about 5 minutes for the entire group of 18 guitars, I wasnt aiming for rocket science at all!

The teacher ended up chaging his opinion of Marshal amps completely.

Edited March 21, 2011 by 51m0n

[MartyBRebelMC]

This is very useful stuff, many thanks for all the comments.

I'm going to print this off and make some notes for the next gig. Hopefully I can get us sounding better - it's such a shame when good musicianship (myself excepted) is ruined by poor sound so i will persevere with this!

Just to mention about my own sound - I use the amp with a flat EQ and use the bass's preamp to shape the sound after that. I use a wireless system so i can go out front and hear what's going on. I find I generally only tweak the settings a bit according to the venue (usually pushing the mids)

[MartyBRebelMC]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1170832' date='Mar 21 2011, 04:22 PM']Guitarists generally and genuinely believe that guitar sounds best when everything is dimed.

Whilst a noble thought it is utter tosh.

Fletcher Munsen curves dicatate that as the volume gets greater the sound that was super in the doudouir is way too bassy and trebly at the gig.

A half stack is total overkill for a pub gig, even a 212 is a lot more than really required, and will suffer from beaming and phase cancellation.

First thing is to see if you cant tune the drums better. Really, if you tune them really well they will be immensely loud in a small space, but thats fine, I've never heard a band in a pub with unmiced drums that really were too loud. Honestly. The rest of the band do need to work as a team to not degenerate into a volume war though.

You will be causing the same issues with your eq too.

Flatten your eq completely.

Get the drums going and turn up the bass to war volume to match. Check you can actually hear the kick drum against you out in the room - now go and turn down until you can. Thats right, you were almost certainly too loud for the kick.

Now tweak the eq (tweak is the operative word) to go in the direction of 'your' sound.

Bring up the rhythm guitar rig (flat eq!), dont let them touch their eq, you do it, you want lower mids not treble and bass, a hint of treble presence will do, and some low mid (for guitar) for body. Remember you need a whole for the lead guitar, carve it out of the rhythm guitar. It need not sound like anything but awful on its own, it isnt going to be heard on its own after all.

Bring up the lead guitar, this needs to be treated carefully to slot into the space you cut out of the rhythm guitar, and again not get into your area, a bit more treble, and a bit of bass can be a good thing, but not enough bass to hurt your sound. The lead gutarist also needs to understand that if they are working as a second rhythm guitar under the vocals they need to lose some presence AND some volume.

Check you can really hear the snare, the rhythm and the lead and the bass as seperate entities, if the guitars both chug a rhythm on an E chord you should clearly hear the snare and the kick, if you join in then you should still hear the kick and snare. People always bang on about how loud they need to be because of the drummer, but in my experience, even a loud rock drummer doesnt compete with a modern bass rig without being mic'ed too. They never really competed with a half stack at all. In other words you arent competing with him, you are probably drowning him out. This isn't obvious at all in a small rehearsal room, but put the kit in a bigger pub venue and its easy to completely swamp the kick with bass or guitar.

Now properly eq'ed a vocal should slide right over the top of all of this, and with a decent graphic on a feed t oa decent monitor you should be able to avoid any feedback.[/quote]


Many thanks for this - as always basschat comes up trumps when you need some help!!

[Lozz196]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1170769' date='Mar 21 2011, 03:23 PM']It's hard to make suggestions without hearing, if it sounds like a mess then there's probably two things going on.

You're too loud. If you're playing small venues and no one really understands EQing as a band, chances are that the volume is going to be too loud too.

EQing is fairly obvious when you talk about it, your bass should be EQd for the lower frequencies, rhythm guitar higher and lead instruments more trebly (within reason), it's much harder to actually do though. Try and play one instrument at the time, so start off with drums. Then add in bass, you should try and be bassy, but without being muddy and with enough mids and treble so your notes are all defined. Then add in the rhythm guitar, try and EQ it so that it sounds very fat in the mix, enough bass to fill out the sound but not so much that it interferes with you, mids and treble need to be there so that it fills out the whole sound. Then the lead guitar needs to sit on top, still enough bass that it doesn't sound weak, but it should sit a higher in frequencies than the rhythm guitar.

You want to balance the whole thing around your vocals though, vocals are the main thing that people listen to in bands, if your singer has a very high pitched voice, she should be sat around the lead guitar's EQ. If she sings a bit deeper, you could make space between the rhythm and lead and EQ the lead slightly higher.

Without hearing your band, especially hearing it live, it's very hard to tell, but that's a basic way to work it out.[/quote]

The above is the way I`ve always tried to approach live sound. Another thing is, if the guitarists are approachable, and if playing overdriven guitars, ask them to drop both the bass and gain by 1 on their amps. If they aren`t approachable, just do it when they aren`t looking.

Edit - should mention I did that once to a guitarist who had to have everything on full. At the end of the gig, he was raving about how good we`d all sounded, and was getting very big-headed about all the positve comments on his guitar solos.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Lozz196

[Tengu]

Whereabouts in Hampshire are you, Marty?

If you are close enough to me I would be happy to come along to a gig and take a listen for you. I have always run the sound in the bands I have been in and get compliments about the quality from all and sundry.

[MartyBRebelMC]

[quote name='Tengu' post='1171147' date='Mar 21 2011, 07:26 PM']Whereabouts in Hampshire are you, Marty?

If you are close enough to me I would be happy to come along to a gig and take a listen for you. I have always run the sound in the bands I have been in and get compliments about the quality from all and sundry.[/quote]


I'm near Basingstoke but the band are based in Reading and we tend to play around the Reading area which would be a bit of a trek, but many thanks for the offer and if we get any gigs your way I'll give you a shout if I may.

I'm going to try a few of the tips and methods mentioned in the posts and will report back after the next gig - a week Saturday.

Cheers

Martin

[Ba55me15ter]

It was briefly mentioned earlier, but a big culprit of 'mush' in many guitar-based bands is the use of digital effects units. They often have settings optimised for sounding great on their own in your bedroom but may be severely lacking in mids when it comes to fitting in with a live band.

[MuckedUpFunkies]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1170832' date='Mar 21 2011, 04:22 PM']A half stack is total overkill for a pub gig, even a 212 is a lot more than really required, and will suffer from beaming and phase cancellation.[/quote]

I completely disagree. Spare Volume is a MUST have for me even in the smallest venue. Never know when you may need to fiddle! =L

[51m0n]

[quote name='MuckedUpFunkies' post='1172371' date='Mar 22 2011, 05:55 PM']I completely disagree. Spare Volume is a MUST have for me even in the smallest venue. Never know when you may need to fiddle! =L[/quote]

Errr, I was referring to the aforementioned Marshal 4x12 guitarist's half stack.

This is a device known for causing large scale damage to the hearing of anyone unlucky enough to be within 20 yards. It is definitely overkill for a pub, though not for a [b]large[/b] stage in a very big venue, where you will find them being used to look good, rather than sound great.

Not talking about bass rigs, where you need to move a lot more air (again with the fletcher munsen curves). A half stack bass rig will be needed in a big pub if you have no PA support for it.

A 112 50watt guitar combo will actually do perfectly well in even a large pub, I've had the pleasure of working in a band that used a Cornford 12 watt 112 combo and those are easily loud enough for a blues band in a pub. Better yet if you need more guitar you can mic it and put a bit in the FOH, the guitarist will still hear himself and you actually have some control over the FOH sound.

Edited March 22, 2011 by 51m0n

[MuckedUpFunkies]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1172382' date='Mar 22 2011, 06:09 PM']Errr, I was referring to the aforementioned Marshal 4x12 guitarist's half stack.

This is a device known for causing large scale damage to the hearing of anyone unlucky enough to be within 20 yards. It is definitely overkill for a pub, though not for a [b]large[/b] stage in a very big venue, where you will find them being used to look good, rather than sound great.

Not talking about bass rigs, where you need to move a lot more air (again with the fletcher munsen curves). A half stack bass rig will need

A 112 50watt guitar combo will actually do perfectly well in even a large pub, I've had the pleasure of working in a band that used a Cornford 12 watt 112 combo and those are easily loud enough for a blues band in a pub. Better yet if you need more guitar you can mic it and put a bit in the FOH, the guitarist will still hear himself and you actually have some control over the FOH sound.[/quote]

I still think spare volume is needed. Its not the amps problem, its the guitarist using it =L

[Cat Burrito]

Firstly I agree 99 times out of 100 it's down to volume. I think individually we all worry too much about our own tone too. Watch a band mix a demo and everyone pipes up about their own performance first. If you listen to the Rolling Stones they sound great at what they do but listen to tracks of the guitars in iscolation and they sound terrible. However they sit great in the mix. It's a good example of a band working together and being greater than the sum of their parts. What sounds good at home or on it's own might not work so well with the other parts.

It may help to get someone independant who knows a bit to come in and say what the problem. You can leave your egos at the door. Most of us are great at identifying problems with our drummers and our guitarists but stop short of realising how we may be less than perfect.

All that said it's a common problem and one that is easier to fix than may seem.I bet you it's actually just a tweak and a fine tune - the problem will be solved! Good luck

[51m0n]

[quote name='MuckedUpFunkies' post='1172388' date='Mar 22 2011, 06:13 PM']I still think spare volume is needed. Its not the amps problem, its the guitarist using it =L[/quote]


No you misunderstand, a guitarist will have enough spare volume in a pub with a 112 or 212 easily for rock or blues.

Spare volume is all well and good, but I guarantee that a guitarist is like Bad Spidey, give him great power and he will ignore the responsibility that goes with it....

Edited March 22, 2011 by 51m0n