Ashdown (again)

[nash]

Can anyone tell me why there is a 400 and 300 watt version of BTA amp and a 427 Small Block (ironic name)?

since when will you use 300 watts? let alone 400+. The small block should be 200 watt in my opinion and the BTA 300 watt.

too much power!

also what's this drophead stuff Ashdown have stolen from Ampeg? is it so the don't have to make shells for the heads? cost cutting?

i've never understood Ashdown.

[bumnote]

Presumably because they think there is a demand for them.

[Mr. Foxen]

Ampeg kind of dropped the ball on their Fliptop style jobs by making them hugely expensive or hybrid. The left a gap people were shouting for, and Ashdown have stepped in, they aim for that trad sound, so it isn't a departure for them, plus with the Little Giant, they already had the style coming.

As for loads of watts, they might be the trad sound, but there's plenty wielding 5 strings or detuning out there, which will suck every watt you can give them.

[Blademan_98]

More power = more fun

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Blademan_98' post='1171514' date='Mar 21 2011, 11:11 PM']More power = more fun [/quote]
This

[robocorpse]

[quote name='nash' post='1171455' date='Mar 21 2011, 10:33 PM']since when will you use 300 watts? let alone 400+.
too much power![/quote]

Nope, for a gigging amp, trouser flapping bass end AND dynamics needs loads of headroom to make it work. Id rather run a 400 watt amp at respectable volume then have all the welly there in reserve if I need it, than run a 200 watt at full pelt and flatten everything in the process. Also bear in mind that doubling the watts does NOT double the volume, and bass needs more power than top end does. Thats why you often see 300w bass amps alongside 100w guitar rigs, and the guitar rigs can still occasionally drown the bass out because they are projecting higher frequencies that are easier to amplify and reproduce, and (crucially) are much more directional. Also depends on the cab. An SVT through an 8x10 will knock people senseless at #5 on the master volume, but through a Hartke 4x10 it sounds a bit limp.

[BluRay]

It just makes more commercial sense to launch with a range of options that they can market test. If nobody buys 400w version, eventually they'll just stop making them & no harm done. And they'll have got more publicity by lauching a full range than just one amp - sends a strong message that they're serious about this side of the market. Good on em.

[Clarky72]

Did it really not occur to them to not make the drophead combos a total beer-sponge?

I can just see a pint coming its way in a packed pub and instantly dying on the spot, what a complete ball ache! Think I'll stick to those old fashioned amp ideas where they put them in a casing, crazy but they might just have something with that design....

[nash]

[quote name='robocorpse' post='1171570' date='Mar 21 2011, 11:47 PM']Nope, for a gigging amp, trouser flapping bass end AND dynamics needs loads of headroom to make it work. Id rather run a 400 watt amp at respectable volume then have all the welly there in reserve if I need it, than run a 200 watt at full pelt and flatten everything in the process. Also bear in mind that doubling the watts does NOT double the volume, and bass needs more power than top end does. Thats why you often see 300w bass amps alongside 100w guitar rigs, and the guitar rigs can still occasionally drown the bass out because they are projecting higher frequencies that are easier to amplify and reproduce, and (crucially) are much more directional. Also depends on the cab. An SVT through an 8x10 will knock people senseless at #5 on the master volume, but through a Hartke 4x10 it sounds a bit limp.[/quote]


i agree that bass needs more power and that higher frequencies travel further but when was the last time you played in a band with a guitarist running his 100watt full?

i've played in and played with a lot of very loud bands and i have also owned a 300watt Sunn and i have never had to go past a quarter on the master volume.

i'm currently using a modded Marshall JCM800 1959 SuperLead with 6550 power amp valves and it's clean as a whistle.


and as for those hybrids with only 100watts between them. there is no point. look at ampeg and hiwatt for example. ampeg do a 300watt and they also have/had a 100watt and hiwatt had a 200watt and a 400watt. there will be a hell of a lot of different value parts between the two hybrids.

i think 200watt is a perfect middle ground. all the Matamp users have no problems with only having 200 watts. you tend to see a lot of people say their Mesa 400+ is so powerful that they can't get loud enough to get a decent valve tone.

ideally i would of liked to of seen a 300 all valve, 300 power amp, the all valve pre and the valve pre solid state power amp heads. and of course the little bastard is a cool amp. that to me seems to tick every box for a lot of people.

[Thurbs]

I am not sure what the problem is to be honest.

Who wouldn't love a 400W power valve head? I would...

As for the drop head, likewise it would be awesome to gig with one but you wouldn't do it in a pub or on a stage you share with other bands.

The £2,200 would also put me off, but if you have the money... why not!?

Good on them i'd say.

[MythSte]

I actually wrote an article on ashdowns range a few days ago. I don't think that having a large range is a bad thing, especially as a consumer.

[url="http://blog.dolphinmusic.co.uk/index.php/blog/view/ashdown_catchup"]http://blog.dolphinmusic.co.uk/index.php/b...ashdown_catchup[/url]

[dan670844]

[quote name='nash' post='1171455' date='Mar 21 2011, 10:33 PM']Can anyone tell me why there is a 400 and 300 watt version of BTA amp and a 427 Small Block (ironic name)?

since when will you use 300 watts? let alone 400+. The small block should be 200 watt in my opinion and the BTA 300 watt.

too much power!

also what's this drophead stuff Ashdown have stolen from Ampeg? is it so the don't have to make shells for the heads? cost cutting?

i've never understood Ashdown.[/quote]

BTA has a Solid state preamp ABM one in fact very nice. Building a few spare watts into the amps not a bad idea as it increases relibility as you arent pushing those tubes. Modern tubes are getting pretty close to the older stuff in terms of sound, but no where near in terms of reliability.
427 has a tube preamp same as LB30 for people who like that sort of thing ha ha ha I agree this is a bit of a beast, but for purposes intended i.e. a massive 4x4x10 or 2x 8x10 stage rig its about right for a valve amp. No its not for the Rose and crown although you could use the volume control.
Above amps are aimed at the pro user (hence the price) for playing larger venues hell even madison sq gardens !! 427 is a reference to a small block ford v8 racing engine from the 60's. Ashdown valve stuff has a car related theme, as they like their motors a little bastard is also a car related ref.

I agree 200 watts is plenty for a valve unit for most applications again prob overkill, with trad cab arrangment. But a lot of people want to use lightweight speakers which you need to push a few watts in to get a good low end response. Hence the wattage rating.

A lot of people knock Ashdown gear, it may not be a sound for everyone, but thats why there are so many amp makers! they had some reliability issues with some of the chinese made gear, but they have that sorted now. Their customer service is great and a most of the new stuff is now being made in England. Above all they are a very reactive little company who listens to all the grips and try to change it for the better.

I am not defending them, I am a ABM user, but I use other brands Ampeg, Trace Elliot, Fender, but I think a lot of the criticism even from me in the past ......ha ha is now unfounded!

The drophead is a fair and sq knock off of a B15 type valve head. But Ampeg only make them periodically and they are double the price of the drophead stuff..... so why not!!

Edited March 25, 2011 by dan670844

[nash]

i see some of your points but still no one has explained why you would bother having 100 watt splits. i've seen a 200 watt BTA on a site. so 200, 300, 400.

also as far a pro gear and having a massive stage rig, no one uses one amp for 2 8x10's. everyone has two. Nate from Foo Fighters has 2 BTA's and 2 8x10's that way you get a more reliable and cleaner sounding rig.

i bet anyone with a 400 watt valve amp has never pushed it past 200watts.

i think in this economic climate a company would be more concise with it's range.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='nash' post='1176630' date='Mar 25 2011, 10:09 PM']i see some of your points but still no one has explained why you would bother having 100 watt splits. i've seen a 200 watt BTA on a site. so 200, 300, 400.[/quote]

I can't see why either.

[quote name='nash' post='1176630' date='Mar 25 2011, 10:09 PM']i bet anyone with a 400 watt valve amp has never pushed it past 200watts.[/quote]

I bet they have. 200W isn't that much power, especially if you're pushing a smaller cab, especially one that goes low.

[nash]

i haven't had a problem with my 100 watts going through a small 4x10 tuned to C.

[Mr. Foxen]

I've lit the clip lights on my Slave 300, it isn't hard. Also, the Ashdown power rankings are pretty similar to the Trace V4, V6 and V8. Are they all KT88 power sections? Different output stage types give different flavours, might be different bias types or UL or all sorts of fun (kind of doubt it though).

[nash]

isn't the V4 200 watts and the V6 and V8 400 watts? also these were around at different periods. the V8 was Gibson i think.

i appreciate the 3 BTA's will sound slightly different but ampeg have done well with just a 300 watt and 100 watts for 40 years. a good business model until recently. keep things simple. don't be a jack of all trades and master of none.

when people hear a bass on a 'rock' record it's more than likely going to be ampeg. they have their sound and ashdown do to a degree but they should keep it focused.

[MythSte]

[quote name='nash' post='1176685' date='Mar 25 2011, 10:57 PM']isn't the V4 200 watts and the V6 and V8 400 watts? also these were around at different periods. the V8 was Gibson i think.

i appreciate the 3 BTA's will sound slightly different but ampeg have done well with just a 300 watt and 100 watts for 40 years. a good business model until recently. keep things simple. don't be a jack of all trades and master of none.

when people hear a bass on a 'rock' record it's more than likely going to be ampeg. they have their sound and ashdown do to a degree but they should keep it focused.[/quote]

I hear you on that one but I've had this argument about Markbass stuff as well.

Surely as a consumer having more choice is a good thing? It makes no odds to me what the business is doing, if I've got more choice then I'm happy. They all sound good, I know that much so I'm struggling to see a downside.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Clarky72' post='1171799' date='Mar 22 2011, 09:49 AM']Did it really not occur to them to not make the drophead combos a total beer-sponge?

I can just see a pint coming its way in a packed pub and instantly dying on the spot, what a complete ball ache! Think I'll stick to those old fashioned amp ideas where they put them in a casing, crazy but they might just have something with that design....[/quote]
You know that it's basically modelled on the classic Ampeg B15,right?

[guybrush threepwood]

[quote name='nash' post='1176630' date='Mar 25 2011, 10:09 PM']i bet anyone with a 400 watt valve amp has never pushed it past 200watts.[/quote]

I agree with Alex on this one; 200 watts isn't a great deal, and it's just a RMS figure anyway - in the real world I reckon that there would easily be moments of almost 1000 watts at a big gig.

[quote name='nash' post='1176685' date='Mar 25 2011, 10:57 PM']isn't the V4 200 watts and the V6 and V8 400 watts?[/quote]
I thought that they were 200, 300 and 400 watts, as the number in their name referred to the amount of power valves...

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='guybrush threepwood' post='1176880' date='Mar 26 2011, 08:12 AM']I agree with Alex on this one; 200 watts isn't a great deal, and it's just a RMS figure anyway - in the real world I reckon that there would easily be moments of almost 1000 watts at a big gig.


I thought that they were 200, 300 and 400 watts, as the number in their name referred to the amount of power valves...[/quote]
So for car and bike fans they could of made a 100watt V-Twin

[dan670844]

[quote name='nash' post='1176630' date='Mar 25 2011, 10:09 PM']i see some of your points but still no one has explained why you would bother having 100 watt splits. i've seen a 200 watt BTA on a site. so 200, 300, 400.

also as far a pro gear and having a massive stage rig, no one uses one amp for 2 8x10's. everyone has two. Nate from Foo Fighters has 2 BTA's and 2 8x10's that way you get a more reliable and cleaner sounding rig.

i bet anyone with a 400 watt valve amp has never pushed it past 200watts.

i think in this economic climate a company would be more concise with it's range.[/quote]


Ha ha ha its just for show , Its just marketing, Its only for stage monitoring, if even they use it for that purpose. A bit of spare is always good.
But I take your point, I guess they designed this stuff when the economic climate was a little different, as I guess it takes a while to get the product to market.
In many ways amp makers are very conservative, most designs are very much just updates of previous designs (if that). They don't like to break the mould, I agree no one needs this kind of power, same is true for transistor amps, but they all follow each other, because if you don't people wont buy it. I like the idea of a valve output stage, but the design really doesnt need to be so retro, i.e old school massive transformers etc, not self biasing. I am old enough to remember when Trace Elliot were on full bore, it got silly just because they where on top and wanted to otffer something different each year, they got up to stupid levels of power and the stuff was just about imobile due to the weight
But to contradict myself I do now have a valve head (an audio kitchen) its 120watts....... basically a bassman 5F reissue, No PCB's, two 4x10's very nice it is too.... but then i dont have to carry it!!!

[nash]

the 2 8x10 thing is for bith show and practical reasons. if one amp goes there is still another. if a small band like Funeral For a Friend run 2 8x10's which i know they did with Gareth then i'm sure bigger bands will. having more small amp's is beter than one big one.

[watchman]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1171546' date='Mar 22 2011, 12:32 AM']This [/quote]

Headroom, baby! It's all about having massive headroom (for me)...

[watchman]

[quote name='guybrush threepwood' post='1176880' date='Mar 26 2011, 09:12 AM']I agree with Alex on this one; 200 watts isn't a great deal, and it's just a RMS figure anyway - in the real world I reckon that there would easily be moments of almost 1000 watts at a big gig.[/quote]

I use an Ashdown Little Giant 1000w (actually two separate 500w output modules in there with their own speaker connections). I run it into an Ashdown 6x10 as a 500 watter, and sometimes add an Ampeg 1x15 for larger gigs, which being 8 ohm gives 250 watts on the other output. I grant you I play mostly reggae, but this rig at three-quarters wallop (as far as you can tell from where the knobs are anyway) is about right for me. Noone's ever told me it's too much in a band context.

Two important points about audio, forgive me if I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs:

First, these class D amps are very, very clean. Since much of what we perceive in terms of volume is down to distortion, they don't sound all that "loud". Think symphony orchestra or big band giving it some stick. Loud as hell (measured in dB), not perceived as especially offensive to the ear, musical taste aside. Small guitar amp melting in a good way, however, is perceptibly loud as hell. I actually got rid of my little class A 5 watt valve guitar amp since at the level it cooked it was far too loud at home. More distortion = "louder". I'm told that this is because the ears and brain become fatigued while trying to "correct" for distortion. By this I don't just mean overdrive either - the phenomenon also applies to the low level of distortion all audio gear exhibits. This is why valves sound a lot louder for a given power output. Well, that and compression inherent in valves being driven. Compression may massively increase perceived levels of volume.

Second, the difference between 200 and 400 wats, say, isn't that great. To get a perceived doubling of volume levels you need roughly ten times the output power. If you work in a band where lots of clean, deep bass is required (yes indeedy, I do) then it's not silly to have a great deal of power. There's no escaping big cabinets and high wattages, although there may be some productive fakery in modern digital processors and so on. I tend to just plug in and go myself.