Loudspeakers and Effects

[Salt on your Bass?]

Morning all,

Following a rehearsal thursday night, it got me thinking about whether there was any kind of "optimum" level for use of effects with amps and speakers. I couldnt find anything that addressed this so thought I'd post.

I was sing my terror bass head, and running into 2 ampeg 15's (not sure of the models - rated at 200w) that are the studios.

At lower levels, I could hear my fuzzs great - actual fuzz, wah great - actual wah and delay. When I then pushed he amp (and cabs) as far as I was comfortable doing so the effects seemed lack lustre and underwhelming. However, at louder levels through my own cabs the week bfore and i could hear every detail of the effect.

So......is it just perhaps beaten up rehearsal room kit that doesnt perform properly, is it something about speakers reaching their limit and then not representing effects as they should, are the effects I'm running just pony? Is it just me not using other gear other than my correctly? Does anyone else find this is the case??

I'm sure there must be a definitve answer on this, however a number of variables that affect it, so thought I'd throw it out there cause rehearsal room rigs seem to sound like mud most of the time.....

[icastle]

There's a point at which the human ear cannot seperate audio nuances.
Stick a band into a small enclosed space and crank everything up to a high volume and you're going to hit that point somewhere.

My opinion has always been that practices should be kept as quiet as possible to allow detail and texture to be practiced\developed.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='icastle' post='1177062' date='Mar 26 2011, 11:34 AM']My opinion has always been that practices should be kept as quiet as possible to allow detail and texture to be practiced\developed.[/quote]
Try telling that to a guitarist!

[Salt on your Bass?]

Thats exactly why I have some ER-15s coming! So with a decent set of plugs, which brings everything down a notch, are my ears likely to pick up more of the nuances?

I think my question on speakers reaching their limit and the impact on noise is still there though - although I guess based on this the answer is in general they reproduce them fine, assuming you're not playing at a level that you cant hear them...?...

[icastle]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1177111' date='Mar 26 2011, 12:15 PM']Try telling that to a guitarist! [/quote]

It's easy

I just gradually and surreptitiously turn the volume back on my bass until I'm too quiet to be heard above the din.
When everything shudders to a halt because nobody has any idea where they are, I just tell them they're too loud.

[icastle]

[quote name='Salt on your Bass?' post='1177119' date='Mar 26 2011, 12:23 PM'] Thats exactly why I have some ER-15s coming! So with a decent set of plugs, which brings everything down a notch, are my ears likely to pick up more of the nuances?

I think my question on speakers reaching their limit and the impact on noise is still there though - although I guess based on this the answer is in general they reproduce them fine, assuming you're not playing at a level that you cant hear them...?... [/quote]

Yes to both

It's good to protect your ears anyway regardless.
The catch is going to be that unless everyone else is wearing them as well, then, as a group, you aren't all working towards the same level of detail.
It would make more sense to just turn everything down.

[watchman]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1177111' date='Mar 26 2011, 01:15 PM']Try telling that to a guitarist! [/quote]

+1, and I'm a guitarist and a bassist in roughly equal measure. Of course much is down to economics. I use a few different amps for guitar, so that if I need the push of a melting tube amp I can use 10 or 15 watts and not deafen or destabilise every poor wretch nearby. Bigger gear for bigger shows or clean headroom. It's nice not to have lug my full rig to rehearsals too (see my tag for stage gear). That said, I am fortunate enough to be able to afford a small selection of amps. Many people have one rig, and need it to do largish outdoor shows in the summer for example. I keep levels down in rehearsals purely to save my ears, but then I wouldn't have said that 30 years ago...

[alexclaber]

The less colouration the speaker adds, and the more linear the response as it gets louder (i.e. the less the colouration increases with increasing SPL), the easier it will be to hear effects. I used to use tons of effects and it can be a nightmare when the tone of your speaker is significantly different at LOUD gig SPL compared to sensible rehearsal SPL.

[xgsjx]

So for someone whom uses FX, would a clear sounding amp & cab be a better option to have for using at both practice & gigs (so getting the sound you want at practice wont dramatically change when playing live)?

[Salt on your Bass?]

I'd guess that would be the case in an ideal world. The places I use to rehearse in though never give you the option, and I'm left feeling I'm lucky to even get kit by the owners, even though we pay through the nose for it most of the time!

That said, even if you had a clean rig at rehearsal, if you play too loud in a small space, you then cant hear any of the effects anyway! So we're back to the guitarist!

[Phil Starr]

I can think of several good reasons why effects should change with volume. One is the equal loudness effect which Alex Claber has recently written on. Basically (no pun) as volume increases you hear bass and treble better so it sounds the same as if you had adjusted your EQ.

At high sound levels there can be an audible doppler effect if one speaker is trying to reproduce all the frequencies.

Also at high frequencies the speaker will become less linear as the voice coil moves out of the magnet gap.

Fuzz involves extra high frequency energy and this can overload a tweeter or kick in the protection circuit.

None of this helps though as you would have to experiment to find the best settings at any given volume for any given speaker. At least you know you aren't imagining this effect,