Need help with live set-up

[Truckstop]

Hello all,

Right, my band are looking at gigging a lot over the summer and autumn before we settle and record an album next year and I want to make sure I sound the best I possibly can at every venue.
So far, all of my my gear is the stuff in my sig., and that is what I'd be taking with me to gigs.

My GK has a DI, would there be an advantage in using a Sansamp DI (for example) in conjunction with the GK? Is the purpose of owning an external DI is for people that don't have a DI on their amps? I always get confused as to why people buy them! I love the sound I get from my GK and Ampeg cab, so I would like to stay as true to that as possible.

Is it worth turning up at gigs with my own speaker mic and boom? Reading the mic thread yesterday got me thinking about the number of times I've played at a gig and i've been DI'd and Mic'd with whatever mic they sound guy had. Would it really improve my sound if I bought a really good mic? If so, any recommendations?

Cables. Is it worth spunking plenty of cash on expensive cables when I already have what I would consider mid-range cables?

I use two basses. The jazz is quieter than the Sting P. Can I get a pedal or a lead or something that I can plug both basses into and keep the levels the same? It's too risky for me to have to turn down/up the master on the amp inbetween switches.

Are wireless systems worth it? I don't envisage playing large stages/venues yet. Would it beneficial for me to spend money on a wireless system? Will they reproduce my sound faithfully? Or rather, is there anything wrong with cables?

Any help at all would be gratefully received. All my live work to date I've just let the soundguy get on with it, but now I feel I need to take more care with my live sound and work on becoming a more professional musician. I'd like to be in a situation where I'm ready to play in any given situation and obtain the same sound as much as possible (taking into account different acoustics and PA systems of different venues etc). I want to sound like god everytime if I can help it!

Cheers everybody

Alex

[ThomBassmonkey]

If you like the sound of your GK, DI that. People use Sansamps becuase it colours the tone, so it'll take you away from the tone you have at the moment.

If you're being fussy, you could take your own mic and boom, but there's not a lot of point, the GK DI is very good and messing about with a mic is another thing you have to do that can be avoided, especially important in time restricted gigs where fast changes are needed. Having a DI never hurts in case your amp dies, but the sound-guy will almost always have one to hand (never been to a gig yet where the sound man hasn't had a DI for our keyboard, though she brings her own just in case).

Mid range cables should be enough, bad cables will degrade your sound, but there's not a lot of difference in sound quality between mid range and high end cables IME. If you're spending about £20 on your leads, you'll have something that should be easily giggable.

If you get an EQ pedal, you can use the volume control on it to bump/lower the volume for one of your basses, that way you swap basses and just click it on or off as needed. It shouldn't colour the tone too much either.

If you're questioning whether or not you need a wireless system, don't get one. If you're not sure you need one, you won't be prepared to fork out the money for a decent one and crap ones will make your sound suffer. You need to spend big to get one that doesn't interfere with your signal quality.

[Doddy]

I always carry a DI box,often two. Even though my Genz Benz has a good DI out,I like using a DI box after my effects
to get a good clean sound.I also carry my own mic,although I use it less frequently right now. Some gigs I just use the
DI,others I just use the mic,others I use both. It usually depends on the sound guy-some guys I don't like the sound they
EQ with the DI so I use the mic,whereas other guys get a great sound with just a DI. For me,it's all about having options.
For some gigs I don't use an amp,so I use either a Line 6 Pod or a Sadowsky Preamp/DI.

Cables. It's well worth buying a couple of good quality cables-it'll make a huge difference to the sound quality. I used a
wireless for a while,but much prefer to use some good cables.

If you want to balance two basses,try an AB box with independent volumes for each channel. Something like the
Boss LS2 will do this,and much more.

[Truckstop]

Cheers guys!
It's just quite hard to get my head around all the ins and outs of live sound!

Thanks for you suggestions and experiences

Alex

[icastle]

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1177199' date='Mar 26 2011, 01:40 PM']My GK has a DI, would there be an advantage in using a Sansamp DI (for example) in conjunction with the GK? Is the purpose of owning an external DI is for people that don't have a DI on their amps? I always get confused as to why people buy them! I love the sound I get from my GK and Ampeg cab, so I would like to stay as true to that as possible.[/quote]

If you're happy with the sound you get from your rig then use the DI on the rig.
The more stuff you add to your setup, the more chance there is of something breaking down.

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1177199' date='Mar 26 2011, 01:40 PM']Is it worth turning up at gigs with my own speaker mic and boom? Reading the mic thread yesterday got me thinking about the number of times I've played at a gig and i've been DI'd and Mic'd with whatever mic they sound guy had. Would it really improve my sound if I bought a really good mic? If so, any recommendations?[/quote]

The DI takes the sound of the preamp but obviously not the tone of the speaker cabs.
If your sound engineer is good then he'll compensate for that (as best he can) using the desk controls.
If he's really good, and has time, then he may decide it's worth micing your cab(s) as well as DI and then mix the two signals together back at the desk.
We generally stick to plain old DI but we do have a handfull of SM57s that we keep for just this purpose.

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1177199' date='Mar 26 2011, 01:40 PM']Cables. Is it worth spunking plenty of cash on expensive cables when I already have what I would consider mid-range cables?[/quote]

I personally think that once you've gone as far as Klotz cable and Neutriks plugs then anything else is snakeoil in the big scheme of things.
Carrying spares is obviously a must.

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1177199' date='Mar 26 2011, 01:40 PM']I use two basses. The jazz is quieter than the Sting P. Can I get a pedal or a lead or something that I can plug both basses into and keep the levels the same? It's too risky for me to have to turn down/up the master on the amp inbetween switches.[/quote]

I use an LS2 line selector pedal with a parametric eq on one path.
I just setup the appropriate volume and EQ on the 'plain' path, switch over to the path with the parametric on it and do the same there.
That gives me one instrument with one setting, stomping on the selector pedal turns that one off and switches the other one on.

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1177199' date='Mar 26 2011, 01:40 PM']Are wireless systems worth it? I don't envisage playing large stages/venues yet. Would it beneficial for me to spend money on a wireless system? Will they reproduce my sound faithfully? Or rather, is there anything wrong with cables?[/quote]

They work pretty well and the reproduction is good enough that you're not going to notice any tangible difference.
I have one and it gets used twice a year or less - I prefer cables; no chance of channels clashing, no danger of batteries failing or the unit dying.
Simple solutions are always the best IMHO - the more 'stuff' you add to a solution, the more chance there is that something will go wrong

Edited March 26, 2011 by icastle

[chris_b]

Get a second 2x10 cab. Bass is not always DI'ed in small venues.
I prefer post EQ DI to mics.
Trust the sound guy. He'll get a better sound out front than you will.
Carry spares of batteries and breakable stuff like strings, leads, tools.

[Truckstop]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1177292' date='Mar 26 2011, 02:43 PM']Get a second 2x10 cab. [b]Bass is not always DI'ed in small venues[/b].
I prefer post EQ DI to mics.
Trust the sound guy. He'll get a better sound out front than you will.
Carry spares of batteries and breakable stuff like strings, leads, tools.[/quote]

That's why I was wondering about mics because I'd to be prepared for every eventuality.

So, iCastle, are SM57's good for miking cabs?

Thanks for all of your inputs! Much appreciated!

Alex

[chris_b]

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1177317' date='Mar 26 2011, 03:13 PM']....That's why I was wondering about mics because I'd to be prepared for every eventuality....[/quote]
I meant that in medium to small venues the bass might not be put through a PA system at all, DI or mic. So you'd need to fill the room from your back line.

[icastle]

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1177317' date='Mar 26 2011, 03:13 PM']So, iCastle, are SM57's good for miking cabs?[/quote]

There are probably posher ones that give slightly better results but you start paying some very serious £'s as soon as you start wandering down that avenue.
The SM57's have a relatively tight polar response (i.e. the are more sensitive head on and quite insensitive from the sides) so that makes them pretty good for miking up cabs in our experience.

Alongside the more normal boom mic stands we have a couple of stands that have a cast iron circular base with a gooseneck that are pretty useful for cabs.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='icastle' post='1177360' date='Mar 26 2011, 04:01 PM']The SM57's have a relatively tight polar response (i.e. the are more sensitive head on and quite insensitive from the sides) so that makes them pretty good for miking up cabs in our experience.[/quote]
+ they've been going for donkey's years & were industry standard for about as long. [i]If it ain't broke etc[/i].

[BassBod]

I'd suggest the programable Sansamp - gives you the ability to set different levels (or sounds) for two basses...or have a mute setting etc It can have a dramatic effect on your sound, but it doesn't have to if you set it to taste.

Also, when you find engineers that won't use your amp's DI (because "its noisy".."sounds crap" etc etc) they will often agree to use a Sansamp..mainly because they recognize it.

I wouldn't carry mics and stands.

Worth adding another cab..or getting a used 4x10 for those backline only gigs. If you are traveling a lot, consider leaving your current cab at home and having one living in the van.

Enjoy! but don't forget the earplugs...

[bassicinstinct]

[quote name='BassBod' post='1177534' date='Mar 26 2011, 07:09 PM']I'd suggest the programable Sansamp - gives you the ability to set different levels (or sounds) for two basses...or have a mute setting etc It can have a dramatic effect on your sound, but it doesn't have to if you set it to taste.

Also, when you find engineers that won't use your amp's DI (because "its noisy".."sounds crap" etc etc) they will often agree to use a Sansamp..mainly because they recognize it.

I wouldn't carry mics and stands.

Worth adding another cab..or getting a used 4x10 for those backline only gigs. If you are traveling a lot, consider leaving your current cab at home and having one living in the van.

Enjoy! but don't forget the earplugs...[/quote]

I'd agree with all of that [b]PLUS [/b]one of the major reasons I have used a seperate DI (old school non programmable SansAmp BDDI as it happens) is that it enables me to pretty much do what I like to the EQ and volume levels of my bass rig for my own monitoring purposes [b]without[/b] it effecting the signal going to the desk and hence the FOH sound and levels.

[Truckstop]

I see.

Very useful information, thank you everybody!

Truckstop

[51m0n]

An SM57 is a great work horse mic, and wont break the bank, but it wont capture very deep bass either.

They work prticularly well in conjunction with a DI send for anything below 150Hz IMO.

Now that may be fine, but the engineer may not want to or have two channels available for bass (we are talking significant mucking about to get the phase right with a mic & DI, but it sounds incredible).

The best mic I've heard on bassy stuff (thats toppy too, and has a lot of important mid range information) is a Heil PR40, which will set you back around £400 unfortunately.

One thing to steer well clear of is kick drum mics on bass cabs, they are designed to scoop the mids pretty radically, and you really dont want that on bass!

ANd dont go spending more for cables than you would for OBBM's from this very site, he uses quality parts and knows how to solder properly, great value kit.

Edited March 30, 2011 by 51m0n

[dc2009]

Hi guys,

Thought I'd put this in here as it's a rather similar sort of question.

I have DI on the front of my head, and now I have my Sansamp PBDDI. The last gig I used (didn't have the sansamp) my head through someone else's cab, both mic'd and DI'd. Now my drummer is getting a van soon, but for some of the gigs coming up in the meantime, a couple of the venues have their own bass cab but no head. Now a head isn't too much to carry, but on public transport I'd rather not bother. So, question is, can I just take my Sansamp to the next gig and run through the PA, do I lose anything that way in your guys opinions?

As for wireless, truckstop, I have one, and it's so far been used once, but with gig bookings it's got another 5 usages coming up. Given I have a coupla pedals running leads to the front of the stage, it's nice not to have your instrument lead tangle up with those. I used to gig a lot before and this was never a problem, but then I rarely played with pedals before. If you're careful, you'll be fine with leads, I even played a gig where I went into a small moshpit with a bass leaded up. If you use a lead, make sure you tuck it through your strap though - makes it easy to retrieve if you lose it. My sennheiser wireless was £80 s/h on here and I'd say it's well worth it, takes all 5 strings comfortably, and I was able to get some distance out my front door before the signal cut out!

[Monckyman]

[i]An SM57 is a great work horse mic, and wont break the bank, but it wont capture very deep bass either.[/i]

True, and they don`t sound bad on a bass cab IF you only intend to capture the valve or distorted grind, they don`t catch much below 125Hz

[i]One thing to steer well clear of is kick drum mics on bass cabs, they are designed to scoop the mids pretty radically, and you really dont want that on bass!
[/i]
Sorry, but I have to disagree.
IMO there is no such thing as a Kick drum mic, merely mics with larger diaphragms designed to capture low frequencies and with a high transient threshold to be able to cope with the massive peaks produced by low frequency signals.
Some mics have become synonymous with micing a kick, such a AKG D112s or Shure Beta 52s or Shure SM91s but they are just as useful on bass guitar cabs.(except the 91, as it`s a flat boundary mic and just sits in the drum!)
All mics have their own characteristics, but most large diaphragm mics suit low frequency work better than smaller diaphragm mics like the SM57.
A cheap alternative cropping up in clubs nowadays is the Audix D6 but the Shure Beta52 regularly comes up on the bay and here for around £100.
This mic has been the kick AND bass cab mainstay of the festival circuit all over europe since it was released. I can`t vouch for the Americas.
This has been my personal experience and not meant to piss anyone off.

[Bankai]

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1177317' date='Mar 26 2011, 04:13 PM']are SM57's good for miking cabs?[/quote]
Guitar cabs. Yes
Bass cabs. No

If you're going to be using a microphone on your bass cab, then you'll want to use it only in conjunction with a DI. And that would preferably be from a DI box or if you don't have one, a DI from your head but is should be pre-EQ etc.

You then balance this clean DI signal from your guitar with the microphone in front of the cab to give you a really nice sound.

The DI will bring the sound of the guitar, and the mic will bring the sound of the cab.

My personal recommendation for a microphone to use for this would be a Sennheiser e602 II or second choice; an AKG D112.

The e602 also works very well on bass drum (sounds really fat and deep) whereas the D112 will do it, but make the drum sound like one from the 80s, all clicky and what.

[Bankai]

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1177199' date='Mar 26 2011, 02:40 PM']My GK has a DI, would there be an advantage in using a Sansamp DI (for example) in conjunction with the GK? Is the purpose of owning an external DI is for people that don't have a DI on their amps? I always get confused as to why people buy them! I love the sound I get from my GK and Ampeg cab, so I would like to stay as true to that as possible.[/quote]
The reason for using a DI box is to protect against failure and the bassist himself.

1. If your amp fails and you're using a DI box, all you'll lose is your on-stage sound and maybe a bit out front. If you're using the built in DI on your amp, you'll lose everything!
2. If you're using a DI in your head, every time you change your gain or EQ (unless the DI is set to pre-EQ) then it'll mess up the sound out front.

[Bankai]

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1177199' date='Mar 26 2011, 02:40 PM']would there be an advantage in using a Sansamp DI (for example)[/quote]
Normal DI boxes are designed to take a neutral signal without colouring it and therefore the sound you'll get from them will be very different to what the amp will usually produce. Therefore a Sansamp is a very good choice if you're going to use a DI as it gives you gain and modelling control on it so you can set up a nice tone.

[Bankai]

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1177199' date='Mar 26 2011, 02:40 PM']Are wireless systems worth it? I don't envisage playing large stages/venues yet. Would it beneficial for me to spend money on a wireless system? Will they reproduce my sound faithfully?[/quote]
Wireless systems are amazing and are really handy.

Besides making you awesome and able to walk out in to the audience and keep on playing, they allow you to sound check whilst off stage thus preventing you from ruining an entrance!

Decent wireless systems will remain neutral, and transmit the full frequency range of your guitar/bass. DO not skimp otherwise you'll end up with bad results.

Moving on to transmission range etc, then most will be alright, just make sure to put your receiver in an appropriate position!




The Bankai personal recommendation for wireless systems is Line 6. Their digital kits are truely brilliant and are the choice of most touring bands I work with. Unparalleled transmission quality I tell you!

[JTUK]

Skimmed this..

But bass is an afterthought for most small P.A.'s and like it or not, it will be an indulgence to mic and DI the bass.
You may just not have the channels spare for a start.

If you like the sound of the amp...you may have to decide whether to give them the Ampeg cab simulation from the Sansamp or the GK DI.
I'd go the latter. Your call if post or pre..if you have that choice at the DI and that depends on whether you rate the engr.
Some are very good and some are glorified DJ wannabees.

If it were me... I'd DI from the amp... and most P.A's like this as they don't carry enough DI boxes..always a good pointer of your PA company expertise, IMO.
This way there is less over-spill on stage.. Leave that to the drums..!!

Make sure you have a pre-mute if you are going to be swapping around basses.
Personally... I would keep this to a minimum and the spare bass is backup.

You don't want to invite problems in levels by too-ing and fro-ing between basses..if you can avoid it.

Edited June 8, 2011 by JTUK