recording overdriven bass in the mix

[paulwillson]

Hi all, been having trouble recording bass for for my band, i love my gain and ive tried recording through my ampeg (DI'd) and with an odb-3 and with the gain patches through an axe-fx but i find that most of the riffs sit lovely and sound nice but there are odd notes that fuzz and sound out of place, the notes i tend to play harder (with my pick) ive tried using a multiband compressor but it lowers the genral feel and volume that the gain creates. was wondering if you guys had any experience in recording a gainy tone?if anyone needs anymore info on my problem just ask. id really really appreciate some help on this and any help would be greatly appreciated as im pulling my hair out here.

cheers

Paul

[chrismuzz]

I'm hardly an expert, but where are you putting the compressor in your signal chain? I put the compressor first to even out my dynamics, then put the overdrive afterwards. I don't get as lairy a tone as i would with no compression at all, but if you put the compressor afterwards it tends to tame the driven effect a bit too much in my experiences. I hope that helps a little!

[51m0n]

If you DI a high gain signal you'll find a massive amount of high frequency fizzy nastiness.

If you listen to a cab's paper cones they cant get up that high and so act as a nice filter removing the poop.

Fact is you're getting more gain because you are hitting harder, however compressing the signal (and I do love my comrpession) before the gain stage will just remove that expressiveness so I wouldnt recommend it before the amp.

Instead get a cheap decent dynamic mic (Senn E835 is defintely up to the task) and mic the cab.

Set up your DI, mic the cab as follows:-

1. mic 1" from the cone angled at 45 degrees to the axis of the cone pointing at the center of the cone.

2. Set recording levels for the mic and the DI signa.l

3. Group the two signals to one channel so you can monitor the combined level

4. play an open string and move the mic slowly back and forth watching the level on the group, when it is at its highest the two signals are in phase.

5. Check the mic'ed signal sounds good, but only worry about the top end, if it doesnt capture the big bottom dont worry, its the grind you are interested in.

When mixing take these two signals, filter them and group them together.

When filtering you want a low pass filter on the DI set to around 150 Hz and a High pass filter on the mic set to the same frequency. Dont be afraid to eq the seperate channels a little. You can apply compression to the bottom end (DI channel) to keep it super tight and consistent as the top end provides all the dynamics, the overdrive circuit will compress the top end a little anyway.

Treat the combined signal as a single sound, applying overall eq and compression as necessary to sit it in the mix right.

Sit back and bask in the glory of your perfectly tracked and mix bass part.

Yes its a little more work, but it provides a lot more control, and a massively improved final result.

Edited March 28, 2011 by 51m0n

[Tuco]

what he said^^^^^^^^^^

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1179183' date='Mar 28 2011, 10:03 AM']If you DI a high gain signal you'll find a massive amount of high frequency fizzy nastiness.

If you listen to a cab's paper cones they cant get up that high and so act as a nice filter removing the poop.......

..................Sit back and bask in the glory of your perfectly tracked and mix bass part.

Yes its a little more work, but it provides a lot more control, and a massively improved final result.[/quote]
The perfect reply really. Not only what to do, but why you are doing it, and all presented in easy steps. Excellent.

Edited March 28, 2011 by ShergoldSnickers

[paulwillson]

thanks alot, perfect reply, will try a dynamic mic and try micing up the cab and using a signal from the DI too. cheers for the fast response. For the record the compression was going before the amp and the overdrive already.

[51m0n]

[quote name='paulwillson' post='1179748' date='Mar 28 2011, 05:05 PM']thanks alot, perfect reply, will try a dynamic mic and try micing up the cab and using a signal from the DI too. cheers for the fast response. For the record the compression was going before the amp and the overdrive already.[/quote]

DONT compress before the amp/overdrive, the dynamics come from the overdrive getting hit harder and grinding more.

If you compress first you will lose that dynamic, and you will be compressing more.

Compress afterwards, at mix down.

Honest it will sound better...

[phil.i.stein]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1179183' date='Mar 28 2011, 10:03 AM']If you DI a high gain signal you'll find a massive amount of high frequency fizzy nastiness.

If you listen to a cab's paper cones they cant get up that high and so act as a nice filter removing the poop.

Fact is you're getting more gain because you are hitting harder, however compressing the signal (and I do love my comrpession) before the gain stage will just remove that expressiveness so I wouldnt recommend it before the amp.

Instead get a cheap decent dynamic mic (Senn E835 is defintely up to the task) and mic the cab.

Set up your DI, mic the cab as follows:-

1. mic 1" from the cone angled at 45 degrees to the axis of the cone pointing at the center of the cone.

2. Set recording levels for the mic and the DI signa.l

3. Group the two signals to one channel so you can monitor the combined level

4. play an open string and move the mic slowly back and forth watching the level on the group, when it is at its highest the two signals are in phase.

5. Check the mic'ed signal sounds good, but only worry about the top end, if it doesnt capture the big bottom dont worry, its the grind you are interested in.

When mixing take these two signals, filter them and group them together.

When filtering you want a low pass filter on the DI set to around 150 Hz and a High pass filter on the mic set to the same frequency. Dont be afraid to eq the seperate channels a little. You can apply compression to the bottom end (DI channel) to keep it super tight and consistent as the top end provides all the dynamics, the overdrive circuit will compress the top end a little anyway.

Treat the combined signal as a single sound, applying overall eq and compression as necessary to sit it in the mix right.

Sit back and bask in the glory of your perfectly tracked and mix bass part.

Yes its a little more work, but it provides a lot more control, and a massively improved final result.[/quote]
thanks for that advice, it makes good sense thinking about it.

can i ask a related question on the mic'ing issue ? i have a Barefaced t-midget which i love the 'bite' of.

the tweeter is located centrally, i.e. in front of the centre of the 12" cone. where's best to place a mic in this instance. or should i just experiment ?

edit - i.e. i would need to balance the tweeter brightness with the more bitey mid-range output of the cone...maybe turn the tweeter right down ?

Edited March 28, 2011 by phil.i.stein

[51m0n]

[quote name='phil.i.stein' post='1179783' date='Mar 28 2011, 05:39 PM']thanks for that advice, it makes good sense thinking about it.

can i ask a related question on the mic'ing issue ? i have a Barefaced t-midget which i love the 'bite' of.

the tweeter is located centrally, i.e. in front of the centre of the 12" cone. where's best to place a mic in this instance. or should i just experiment ?

edit - i.e. i would need to balance the tweeter brightness with the more bitey mid-range output of the cone...maybe turn the tweeter right down ? [/quote]


Its always a case of experimenting, the sweet spot and angle are dependant on the cab, mic, room and volume.

One point to note though is that a DI will provide all the frequencies that the tweeter does, and if you are looking for those you probably arent using a lot of distortion.

If you are and like the sound of distortion with the tweeter up then you may find you dont need to mic at all.

Usually though IME you dont really want a lot of tweeter in a mic'ed overdriven bass sound (I know of one notable exception to this, that I have recorded, and they want plenty of ultrafizz to mix into the top end of the guitar and synths - worked great for them, but highly unusual).

Rememer that volume is related to distance with the inverse square law, in other words if you move the mic twice as far away from a source the signal is 4 times quieter. I nthe case of the midget if you mic closer to the edge of the 12" cone pointing at the center (as a starting point) you would get significantly less tweeter due to the inverse square law and the likely diminished ability of the tweeter toradiate sound almost at 90 degrees to its transducer. MOve the mic in to the center of the cab to add more tweeter top end.

Balancing this lot with the DI will take patience, but the result should still be excellent.

[51m0n]

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' post='1179625' date='Mar 28 2011, 03:32 PM']The perfect reply really. Not only what to do, but why you are doing it, and all presented in easy steps. Excellent.[/quote]

ta - making me blush now

[phil.i.stein]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1179801' date='Mar 28 2011, 05:53 PM']Its always a case of experimenting, the sweet spot and angle are dependant on the cab, mic, room and volume.

One point to note though is that a DI will provide all the frequencies that the tweeter does, and if you are looking for those you probably arent using a lot of distortion.

If you are and like the sound of distortion with the tweeter up then you may find you dont need to mic at all.

Usually though IME you dont really want a lot of tweeter in a mic'ed overdriven bass sound (I know of one notable exception to this, that I have recorded, and they want plenty of ultrafizz to mix into the top end of the guitar and synths - worked great for them, but highly unusual).

Rememer that volume is related to distance with the inverse square law, in other words if you move the mic twice as far away from a source the signal is 4 times quieter. I nthe case of the midget if you mic closer to the edge of the 12" cone pointing at the center (as a starting point) you would get significantly less tweeter due to the inverse square law and the likely diminished ability of the tweeter toradiate sound almost at 90 degrees to its transducer. MOve the mic in to the center of the cab to add more tweeter top end.

Balancing this lot with the DI will take patience, but the result should still be excellent.[/quote]
nicely. thanks, i'll give it a try next time we get around to doing proper recordings.

[chewrocket]

Usually I will record the bass part through an amp, mic it up accordingly for a decent clean tone, but also DI the bass.... send the (now compressed) DI signal back through an amp afterwards, with a distortion pedal in the chain, record the amp with an appropriate mic set up. 99% of the time this works great for me.

[thumbo]

I've had good results from re-amping recently. I've recorded my bass parts into a nice mic pre amp, got a really nice clean tone and used a small amount of compression and recorded it. Then I've sent the signal back out to my bass rig which is mic'd and DI'd. This has given me a good chance to play around with my pedals and mic placement whilst hearing my bass lines.