Rising costs of neodymium.

[Musicman20]

Rising costs of Neodymium – concerns on Talkbass
 
I realise most internet discussions on forums as large as Talkbass can become out of hand and are often blown out of proportion. It happens on all forums I guess!
 
The main reason for this topic is the concerns that have been raised regarding neodymium prices and availability. It seems from my limited knowledge that neo is obtained from China who have recently actioned the prices and what appears to be a limit on the export amounts.
 
As we all know, the neo-speaker market has become pretty damn large, with many manufacturers choosing neo speakers for their cabinet designs. Even pickups are incorporating neo, like the EBMM Big Al and some (?) Dingwall basses, (I presume there are a lot more).
 
This is not a topic on the pros and cons, because we have been there before. We can all like what we like, lets face it.
 
Where does this leave the consumer? Are we going to be hit with EVEN MORE price rises?! I personally think some neo cabs ARE over-priced, but then again so are many ceramic loaded cabinets.
 
Lets face it, I think hiking the prices even more is going to leave the manufacturers with a problem. Will we, the consumer, pay the upcharge?! Lets not forget, if they are imported from say, America, to the UK, we are effectively going to have another price rise on top of what the neo price rise is, purely because of the fact its imported, (and no doubt some manufacturers may choose to take the mick and increase the prices disproportionately).
 
Talkbass have quotes from Jim Bergantino and snippets off the Avatar website discussing the rise in prices. I think its clear that there is a state of limbo….as in they aren’t sure exactly what will happen next.
 
It’s a shame Bergantino discontinued the HT/EX ER series and HS series. Perhaps he won’t in light of this?
 
What do we think will happen next? We will just continue to buy and pay the rather silly price rises, or will the manufacturers sense this will cause problems and design more ceramic loaded cabinets again?!
 
In my humble opinion, manufacturers who solely produce neo loaded cabinets are going to suffer quite badly with either a loss of sales or indeed loss of whole lines until things are rectified. I know as bass players, we are quite proud of our new technology, but when I try to explain to people that a 1x12 can cost upto £600 (before the price hike) they are literally flabbergasted!
 
Who knows what is going to happen.
 
I am still searching for ‘that’ neo cabinet that has the right spec, right size, and a weight that’s actually worthwhile spending the money on. Obviously being how I am, Id like it to sound as close to what I class as smooth with none of the neo ‘bite’ in the high mids that winds me up a little. Aguilar seem to have taken this idea with the SL112s, but we shall see, so its obvious they can make neo and ceramic sound almost the same.
 
I have my eye on the Genz Benz Neo X212T in the new vinyl/tolex finish they have released…that seems to tick all the boxes so far (eg light, great size, 4 ohm, 2x12, well renowned, and a fair price).
 

[chris_b]

I guess we'll just have to declare war and invade.

[martindupras]

I don't know the full story behind the costs of Neodymium.

I think it is safe, however, to apply some basic laws of economics. I don't know what proportion of the neodymium market speaker demand represents, but I would think there's a vast number of applications for neodymium. I would think there must be some products manufactured in large numbers (hard drives, for instance) where neodymium is used because it is the right ratio of price, performance and weight. The minute it raises the price of a hard drive outside of what the consumers will pay is also the minute the hard drive manufacturers will use different designs and different magnets to remain competitive. By the same token, if something must be made with neodymium, then that demand will remain regardless of cost.

By the same token, if that same hard drive manufacturer is not buying neodymium because it's too dear, they are driving the price down because there is now less offer.

Another factor to take into account is what proportion of the speaker is attributable to the use of neodymium. If the price of neodymium, what would that do to the price of the speaker? It wouldn't, in any case, double it.

Rarity is a different matter, but I would think if there is high demand and China is upping its prices, that's all the more reason for other countries to start producing it. From what I understand, it's not particularly rare, it's just that demand is relatively recent, which is why it's not widely mined and refined.

All this to say: there is probably no need to worry.

- martin


[quote name='Musicman20' post='1184669' date='Apr 1 2011, 01:18 PM']Rising costs of Neodymium – concerns on Talkbass
 
I realise most internet discussions on forums as large as Talkbass can become out of hand and are often blown out of proportion. It happens on all forums I guess!
 
The main reason for this topic is the concerns that have been raised regarding neodymium prices and availability. It seems from my limited knowledge that neo is obtained from China who have recently actioned the prices and what appears to be a limit on the export amounts.
 
As we all know, the neo-speaker market has become pretty damn large, with many manufacturers choosing neo speakers for their cabinet designs. Even pickups are incorporating neo, like the EBMM Big Al and some (?) Dingwall basses, (I presume there are a lot more).
 
This is not a topic on the pros and cons, because we have been there before. We can all like what we like, lets face it.
 
Where does this leave the consumer? Are we going to be hit with EVEN MORE price rises?! I personally think some neo cabs ARE over-priced, but then again so are many ceramic loaded cabinets.
 
Lets face it, I think hiking the prices even more is going to leave the manufacturers with a problem. Will we, the consumer, pay the upcharge?! Lets not forget, if they are imported from say, America, to the UK, we are effectively going to have another price rise on top of what the neo price rise is, purely because of the fact its imported, (and no doubt some manufacturers may choose to take the mick and increase the prices disproportionately).
 
Talkbass have quotes from Jim Bergantino and snippets off the Avatar website discussing the rise in prices. I think its clear that there is a state of limbo….as in they aren’t sure exactly what will happen next.
 
It’s a shame Bergantino discontinued the HT/EX ER series and HS series. Perhaps he won’t in light of this?
 
What do we think will happen next? We will just continue to buy and pay the rather silly price rises, or will the manufacturers sense this will cause problems and design more ceramic loaded cabinets again?!
 
In my humble opinion, manufacturers who solely produce neo loaded cabinets are going to suffer quite badly with either a loss of sales or indeed loss of whole lines until things are rectified. I know as bass players, we are quite proud of our new technology, but when I try to explain to people that a 1x12 can cost upto £600 (before the price hike) they are literally flabbergasted!
 
Who knows what is going to happen.
 
I am still searching for ‘that’ neo cabinet that has the right spec, right size, and a weight that’s actually worthwhile spending the money on. Obviously being how I am, Id like it to sound as close to what I class as smooth with none of the neo ‘bite’ in the high mids that winds me up a little. Aguilar seem to have taken this idea with the SL112s, but we shall see, so its obvious they can make neo and ceramic sound almost the same.
 
I have my eye on the Genz Benz Neo X212T in the new vinyl/tolex finish they have released…that seems to tick all the boxes so far (eg light, great size, 4 ohm, 2x12, well renowned, and a fair price).
 [/quote]

[mybass]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1184669' date='Apr 1 2011, 01:18 PM']Rising costs of Neodymium – concerns on Talkbass
 
I realise most internet discussions on forums as large as Talkbass can become out of hand and are often blown out of proportion. It happens on all forums I guess!
 
The main reason for this topic is the concerns that have been raised regarding neodymium prices and availability. It seems from my limited knowledge that neo is obtained from China who have recently actioned the prices and what appears to be a limit on the export amounts.
 
As we all know, the neo-speaker market has become pretty damn large, with many manufacturers choosing neo speakers for their cabinet designs. Even pickups are incorporating neo, like the EBMM Big Al and some (?) Dingwall basses, (I presume there are a lot more).
 
This is not a topic on the pros and cons, because we have been there before. We can all like what we like, lets face it.
 
Where does this leave the consumer? Are we going to be hit with EVEN MORE price rises?! I personally think some neo cabs ARE over-priced, but then again so are many ceramic loaded cabinets.
 
Lets face it, I think hiking the prices even more is going to leave the manufacturers with a problem. Will we, the consumer, pay the upcharge?! Lets not forget, if they are imported from say, America, to the UK, we are effectively going to have another price rise on top of what the neo price rise is, purely because of the fact its imported, (and no doubt some manufacturers may choose to take the mick and increase the prices disproportionately).
 
Talkbass have quotes from Jim Bergantino and snippets off the Avatar website discussing the rise in prices. I think its clear that there is a state of limbo….as in they aren’t sure exactly what will happen next.
 
It’s a shame Bergantino discontinued the HT/EX ER series and HS series. Perhaps he won’t in light of this?
 
What do we think will happen next? We will just continue to buy and pay the rather silly price rises, or will the manufacturers sense this will cause problems and design more ceramic loaded cabinets again?!
 
In my humble opinion, manufacturers who solely produce neo loaded cabinets are going to suffer quite badly with either a loss of sales or indeed loss of whole lines until things are rectified. I know as bass players, we are quite proud of our new technology, but when I try to explain to people that a 1x12 can cost upto £600 (before the price hike) they are literally flabbergasted!
 
Who knows what is going to happen.
 
I am still searching for ‘that’ neo cabinet that has the right spec, right size, and a weight that’s actually worthwhile spending the money on. Obviously being how I am, Id like it to sound as close to what I class as smooth with none of the neo ‘bite’ in the high mids that winds me up a little. Aguilar seem to have taken this idea with the SL112s, but we shall see, so its obvious they can make neo and ceramic sound almost the same.
 
I have my eye on the Genz Benz Neo X212T in the new vinyl/tolex finish they have released…that seems to tick all the boxes so far (eg light, great size, 4 ohm, 2x12, well renowned, and a fair price).
 [/quote]
Interesting post.
I wonder if manufacturers did produce the non neo cabs that these cabs would
these days be cheaper?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

The source of this is rising oil prices. They've resulted in the surge of hybrid autos, which use most of the neo produced, and in response to the demand the supplier has raised the price. Since China enjoys a virtual monopoly they'll get away with it for a bit. But the rising price of neo means that other countries will now start mining neo and manufacturing neo magnets, and both supplies and prices will stabilize. Don't be surprised to see neo mining in Wales.

[dannybuoy]

It's not just neodymium, China has a monopoly on many rare earth materials that we depend on:

[url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/8385189/Rare-earths-why-China-is-cutting-exports-crucial-to-Western-technologies.html"]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/8385189...chnologies.html[/url]

[Mr. Foxen]

I bet most of the cost of a neo speaker isn't the neo, probably a tiny contributor to the unit cost. Its a really strong magnet so you don't need much of it is loads of the point.

Economically, China is in a hugely strong position in so many levels. Being nice to people can make them work harder, but it usually makes them work more expensively. There are cheaper ways to instil a work ethic.

[Toasted]

1) It's a fraction of the cost of the street price of the cabinet.

2) Inflation is a 4%. Everything is getting more expensive.

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1184743' date='Apr 1 2011, 02:11 PM']The source of this is rising oil prices. They've resulted in the surge of hybrid autos, which use most of the neo produced....[/quote]
Apparently, Neodymium is also used in wind turbine generators also.

The real issue at stake here is not electricity, but GAS.
How many times do you need to change a cabinet (or, more pertinently, the Neodymium using bits, the drivers)?
Alright, maybe you need to change your cabs due to weight issues, but once you've done that, do you [i]have[/i] to change/replace cabs until one malfunctions?

[Musicman20]

Well it must be making quite an impact. Bergantino stopping AE series production apparently, according to the Talkbass topic.

[alexclaber]

Google neodymium prices. The price has gone through the roof! We don't intend to stop using neo speakers if it's reasonably possible but they will be getting more expensive and the price volatility and limited supply is causing a lot of stress and hassle for everyone in the industry.

[Subthumper]

Hi, some interesting points here. My question is, are neo drivers actually more expensive to make than ceramic ones or are neo ones more expensive because they're light? It seem the cost of a neo equivalent cabinet is horrendously more than its ceramic counterpart and as someone said most of the cost is the cabinet (though in many cases I fail to see where the money goes).
Just

[alexclaber]

The cost of the raw neodymium in our drivers has gone from about £5 to £50 per woofer, in the last year.

[Musicman20]

I'm no expert, but the construction and materials in general are also factors. I'm quite keen to know what happens in 5 years time...what cabs will be after then?

[Mr. Foxen]

Anyone got bust neo speakers taking up space? I'll take em off your hands.

[RichF]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='1186310' date='Apr 2 2011, 11:27 PM']The cost of the raw neodymium in our drivers has gone from about £5 to £50 per woofer, in the last year.[/quote]

wow - i think for just so many things we are going to look back at recent days and say "we never had it so good", when our kids are paying £100K to go to Uni and we are paying £2k for a barely decent 4x10.

[chris_b]

China is buying up sources of many raw materials so this problem will be more common in the future!

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1186562' date='Apr 3 2011, 10:25 AM']China is buying up sources of many raw materials so this problem will be more common in the future![/quote]
China already had the bulk of global supplies of Neodymium anyway. It didn't need to buy them, just mine them.
Samarium Cobalt anyone?!

[Bankai]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='1186310' date='Apr 2 2011, 11:27 PM']The cost of the raw neodymium in our drivers has gone from about £5 to £50 per woofer, in the last year.[/quote]
WUT.

What drove up the price!?

[garethfriend]

and this is why all this talk of renewable energy and electric cars is wishful thinking at the moment, someone did a calculation to work out how much neodymium there currently is that is recoverable and how much would be needed to create enough generators and motors to support current levels of industry and civilization. The answer was "no where near enough" and it's all in china, one of the most heavily militarised counntries in the world. you'd think I'd be more bothered about this than the price of a cab wouldn't you?

[Lfalex v1.1]

Interesting reading;
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium_magnet"]Wikipedia Neo Magnet Page[/url]

[algmusic]

[quote name='RichardFoggo' post='1186515' date='Apr 3 2011, 09:27 AM']wow - i think for just so many things we are going to look back at recent days and say "we never had it so good", when our kids are paying £100K to go to Uni and we are paying £2k for a barely decent 4x10.[/quote]

This could eventually lead to just good pre amps and PA or In-ear monitoring.. :-( bearing in mind the nominal gig fee hasn't change much in the last 7 years, yet all other costs are raising.. This was why I looked at a small powerful rig that I could take on the train

[Waldo]

[quote name='garethfriend' post='1186667' date='Apr 3 2011, 12:52 PM']and this is why all this talk of renewable energy and electric cars is wishful thinking at the moment, someone did a calculation to work out how much neodymium there currently is that is recoverable and how much would be needed to create enough generators and motors to support current levels of industry and civilization. The answer was "no where near enough" and it's all in china, one of the most heavily militarised counntries in the world. you'd think I'd be more bothered about this than the price of a cab wouldn't you?[/quote]

I'm glad you've said this. I'm sick of having to explain this to ignorant eco-types, it's really not just a simple case of building wind farms and job done. Also see lanthanum and your toyota prius battery.

And then there's the radioactive waste generated during the extraction of the lanthanides, funny how no-one ever mentions that!

[Shambo]

I've noticed the Purple Chili website has removed the prices for their neo cabs, "Due to huge price rises in Neodymium".

[dumelow]

think im gonna be ordering meself several neo cabs before the price rises happen!