Back to basics

[ras52]

[quote name='OzMike' post='1186451' date='Apr 3 2011, 05:43 AM']When people sometimes compliment me on my playing, I hold back a giggle thinking 'you don't know how crap I really am, and how much practice I had to do to cover it up'. [/quote]

Perhaps another way of saying that would be,

'you don't know how crap I was, and how much practice I had to do to improve'

[Doddy]

[quote name='BottomE' post='1186702' date='Apr 3 2011, 01:25 PM']All musos are fakers to some extent.[/quote]

But you can eliminate a hell of a lot of it by having your stuff together.

[Slipperydick]

I been faking it since the 70s when there were no tabs, no youtube, only chord books that were expensive and often wrong.

At least now I know I'm not alone.

[ZMech]

going back to basics is interesting. Not quite on such an extreme scale, had my first DB lesson in a while (have been playing for several months), and just got my massive weaknesses pointed out. So this morning I spent half an hour playing purely open strings, was good fun.

[hellothere]

It's not how you learn things it's how good you sound. No one cares if you can't read music or understand theory if you come up with good basslines and play well live. Of course theory, reading, etc help alot.

Fakers my arse.

[Doddy]

[quote name='hellothere' post='1186741' date='Apr 3 2011, 02:26 PM']It's not how you learn things it's how good you sound. No one cares if you can't read music or understand theory if you come up with good basslines and play well live. Of course theory, reading, etc help alot.

Fakers my arse.[/quote]

It depends on what the gig is. There are plenty of gigs where people will care if you can read or understand theory.

[hellothere]

Fair point but I imagine that is normally in a jazz band or proffesional work, rather than in a cover band.

I know reading music and having a good understanding of theory is a good thing and is very useful but it dosn't mean anyone who just has a basic understanding of theory and is half decent at playing is a fake. At least not in my book.

[Doddy]

[quote name='hellothere' post='1186770' date='Apr 3 2011, 02:56 PM']Fair point but I imagine that is normally in a jazz band or proffesional work, rather than in a cover band.

I know reading music and having a good understanding of theory is a good thing and is very useful but it dosn't mean anyone who just has a basic understanding of theory and is half decent at playing is a fake. At least not in my book.[/quote]

I never said they were. I was just making the point that there are plenty of situations where you do need to know stuff and couldn't fake your way through- If you don't know what you are doing and can't cut it,you get sacked.
I've played with cover bands where everything is written out aswell.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='hellothere' post='1186770' date='Apr 3 2011, 02:56 PM']Fair point but I imagine that is normally in a jazz band or proffesional work, rather than in a cover band.

I know reading music and having a good understanding of theory is a good thing and is very useful but it dosn't mean anyone who just has a basic understanding of theory and is half decent at playing is a fake. At least not in my book.[/quote]

I can see where this is going to go already

Why would only Jazzers or Pro's make use of notation?

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1186806' date='Apr 3 2011, 04:20 PM']I can see where this is going to go already

Why would only Jazzers or Pro's make use of notation? [/quote]


Hmmm, agree with you here Pete

[martthebass]

Another faker here mate....see how much company you've got!

Sometimes I'm embarrassed to use the gear I've got, after the last gig I considered selling the lot other than my trusty Sue Ryder.

Theres nothing wrong with working out stuff with the guitarist in the band if that's what works for you, alternatively spend a bit of time with the old iPod and practice amp. Occasionally when I'm in one of my, 'cant play for toffee' modes I set myself a target of learning a song I consider tough. A few years back I considered that Rio was way beyond me, a few practice hours later I'd pretty much nailed it.....

[Ross]

Some may disagree but I am going to tell you, learn notation.
I was in the exact same position as you a few months ago, well, I could only really "sort of play this" and "sort of play that", I really didn't have much variance in my playing and even though I sounded ok live, I wasn't happy with the level I was at in comparison to my fellow musicians, my first big step into becoming less of a faker was learning how to read notation.
I learnt my first piece of classical (cello suite 1 in g major) and ate my way through many cello pieces which really helped me with my reading and technique, now I find I can sight read pretty much anything put in front of me, I find it much easier than learning off tabs or by ear and have subsequently started to play much more advanced pieces in many genres. Working through theory on the way.
Don't get me wrong, I know some amazing musicians who don't read music, but it's what really helped me develop in someone who can really play and rekindled my passion for playing.

As far as learning by ear goes, thats just practise man, slowly but surely.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Ross

[skej21]

To the OP, I just want to say that you should probably be careful not to fall into the "reading solves all" trap.

I know a LOT of very good musicians who learnt to read from the start and as a result, they can play anything that's put in front of them but their ear is dreadful, because they don't need to rely on it too much.

I think reading is useful for LOADS of reasons, and the OP should definitely learn, but just make sure that you don't neglect the ear training bit or expect that your ear will develop through reading without any extra work.

[stingrayPete1977]

Lets not have a reading or no reading debate, Learn to read, learn to use your ears, listen to others around you, fiddle about at home, work stuff out with guitarists, Just do everything! Thats the best way no doubt about it. If you can play already then learning to read wont make you become a robot it will help you to be able to play things quicker as the guess work has been taken out of it, You still need to add your feelings and tone to it. I think reading is if anything more useful for covers bands than originals, I work stuff out with the band leader who doesnt give me any notation at all (I have started to put it down for my own use at a later date for when the do you fancy a last minute gig offer comes up and to help me learn to read better) but the last band I was in for 4 years up until a few weeks ago the reading would of cut my learning time down loads if the songs were available in notation, I cant sight read them so there is no way I would be able to fall into this robot fashion reading on stage at the Dog and Duck we always hear about (but I have never seen)

[Doddy]

[quote name='skej21' post='1186839' date='Apr 3 2011, 05:02 PM']I think reading is useful for LOADS of reasons, and the OP should definitely learn, but just make sure that you don't neglect the ear training bit or expect that your ear will develop through reading without any extra work.[/quote]

That's why I said do both earlier on.

The problem is there are a lot of people that will dismiss reading for whatever reason and others who have never trained their ear for whatever reason.Neither is exclusive and both will help each other.
Having said that,I do believe that a certain amount of theory knowledge will help your ear no end,as you can use it to preemp what is going to happen-but again you use it in conjunction with your ear/reading.

[Marvin]

I like many are a faker, a big faker.
I've little theory knowledge and as for reading it would take me ages to decipher a single page. I use tabs (mainly guitar pro transcripts) and fit them to the song I'm been tasked to learn. I've not the time to train my ear or learn more theory or read music. But then my aims are to simply gig around locally for fun and I'm currently having fun getting ready for those gigs.
I regard my playing as very weak, there is a lot I can't do. Probably only really been playing properly for 12months however at the last practice my guitarist, a guy who's been in bands of one form or another for 30+years turned and said he really did like the way I played Ordinary World (rather ironic as I don't like Duran Duran ).

There are simply masses of fakers out there all doing the same thing.

Going back to basics may work. However, when I was not in a band I found it very difficult to motivate myself to learn for example more theory. The irony being that now I could do with it I've not got the time

For me I suppose it's all about having something to aim for that has meaning and relevance to where I am.

[LawrenceH]

I haven't needed to read anything for years (I'm just a weekend warrior though! Doddy tends to come at this from a working pro perspective), and in fact I'm not sure I've ever read anything for bass as such, though in another life I was a pianist so I could do it (but wouldn't enjoy it).

However...although Ive said in the past I don't think 'formal' theory is /absolutely/ necessary, the things I learned for which reading was a prerequisite inform my playing enormously. I think in keys, degrees of the scale and chords which reading can help you do.

Don't confuse 'theory' with 'reading', which seems to be implied quite often by comments on here. Just because you know the alphabet doesn't mean you know the language. Reading is to me the boring bit that you get out of the way to assist in unlocking how music works with your ear. It's perfectly possible to be an excellent reader and know next to nothing about music theory - likewise as long as you understand the relationship between your fretboard, note names, chords and keys then reading per se only matters at gigs where sheet music is plonked in front of you.

Music theory is way more fun and involved than learning to sight-read. Plus a little bit goes a long way in a lot of styles of music.

[hellothere]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1186806' date='Apr 3 2011, 04:20 PM']I can see where this is going to go already

Why would only Jazzers or Pro's make use of notation? [/quote]

I'm not saying they are the only people who need to use notation, I'm just saying, I imagine that they are the ones who most often find it a necessity. Of course it is allways useful to have skills such as that, and reading is something I am slowly teaching myself, I just don't think not having them makes you a "faker".

If you can play the instrument, even badly, then you are really playing it. There is nothing fake about it.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='hellothere' post='1186950' date='Apr 3 2011, 06:51 PM']I'm not saying they are the only people who need to use notation, I'm just saying, I imagine that they are the ones who most often find it a necessity. Of course it is allways useful to have skills such as that, and reading is something I am slowly teaching myself, I just don't think not having them makes you a "faker".

If you can play the instrument, even badly, then you are really playing it. There is nothing fake about it.[/quote]
No I didnt say they were fakers either, Like Doddy I want to make that [u]very[/u] clear before anyone slings the mud that we usually get!

I dont think the genre of music makes any difference at all and if you only play with one group 100% of the time and none of them read there is probably little point from a giiging point of view to read but you dont need to be a pro player to mix in circles where you can get called last minute to play a gig where all they can give you is the key or some notation, Its fun and often the way of getting to know the next bunch of people to play with as most towns have a group of muso's that appear to be in every band in one way or another which I love! Doddy knows how bad a player and reader I am but I like to be thrown in at the deep end so whos the biggest faker now? You just have to stay one step in front so they dont catch you out.

[hellothere]

I know you didn't specifically say that. I just don't get the whole idea of "fakers"

I don't mean to come across like I'm pissed off or anything, it just seems non-sensical to call people fakers. On the whole I agree with what you are saying!

[stingrayPete1977]

Sorry we are talking about the OP feeling that he was a faker rather than him actually being one. The reality like all of us his has hit a wall, A good way of opening up some fresh thinking is with theory/reading study that's all.

[lee4]

I fake,therefore I am(a bass player,or a player of ANY instrument).
Just keep playing.Try different genres of music.Use different techniques.
Accept that you play YOUR way.
Get other band members to suggest bass lines to their songs.
Above all,keep an open mind,that way you will always keep learning.


And never underestimate the power of Root and Fifth;it's got me out of many a sticky situation!

[Doddy]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1186913' date='Apr 3 2011, 06:11 PM'](I'm just a weekend warrior though! Doddy tends to come at this from a working pro perspective),[/quote]

Yep....Exactly.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1186966' date='Apr 3 2011, 07:04 PM']I dont think the genre of music makes any difference at all and if you only play with one group 100% of the time and none of them read there is probably little point from a giiging point of view to read but you dont need to be a pro player to mix in circles where you can get called last minute to play a gig where all they can give you is the key or some notation, Its fun and often the way of getting to know the next bunch of people to play with as most towns have a group of muso's that appear to be in every band in one way or another which I love[/quote]

That's a good point. I don't buy the whole 'my band doesn't read/know theory so I don't need to' argument. It gives you a whole new perspective on things and opens up so many more options to the player,be they gigging or educational wise.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1186966' date='Apr 3 2011, 07:04 PM']Doddy knows how bad a player and reader I am but I like to be thrown in at the deep end so whos the biggest faker now? You just have to stay one step in front so they dont catch you out.[/quote]

You're not a bad player,and you're reading is coming on.
You want to try to keep as many steps ahead as you can. You may be able to be stay one step ahead of some people and get through a gig,but then you have to consistently keep it up. If you fail to do this,that is what I would class as a 'faker'.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1187126' date='Apr 3 2011, 09:38 PM']Yep....Exactly.



That's a good point. I don't buy the whole 'my band doesn't read/know theory so I don't need to' argument. It gives you a whole new perspective on things and opens up so many more options to the player,be they gigging or educational wise.



You're not a bad player,and you're reading is coming on.
You want to try to keep as many steps ahead as you can. You may be able to be stay one step ahead of some people and get through a gig,but then you have to consistently keep it up. If you fail to do this,that is what I would class as a 'faker'.[/quote]

Thanks Doddy your brown envelope is on it's way

[gjones]

[quote name='munkonthehill' post='1186539' date='Apr 3 2011, 10:00 AM']Man up men. WE ARE BASS PLAYERS........................BE PROUD.[/quote]

I have to apologise for my fellow Scotsman...............he's from Glasgow.