The Moondance Challenge

[frank]

Following on from a recent post were moondance has come up as a bad walking line, and over time it has come up again and again. Can someone or maybe several of you wiser people take on with this
Mighty challenge.

Im not taking pot shots or criticiseing the song the original bass player or anyones opinion or taste in any style of music this is purely for my own education.

Back in 1999 i liked this bass line so much i not only learned it i wrote it out ( in tab as i only reciently started reading music ) if im able to attach it this it may save you having to listen to it too much
just stick in the correct rhythms.
Obviously i know at this stage the chords are wrong (got them form a guitar book) and therefore the note functions i wrote underneath also, but this was 12 years ago.

This song was one of my stepping stones into walking bass.
I went on to play it to death with a band with a kinda semi rock feel sometimes twice a night, so i cant bear the song at this stage either.


But i think it could be fun, a challenge, interesting and beneficial to me and maybe lots of others if some of you could take on with this.

1. Analyse the line, show the bad note choices and which notes flow better (the original is very clunky so this may not be of much benefit so on to number 2)

2. Remake the line as a proper walking jazz bass line. You could base it purely on the chords or the original song would be best.

ill try to include my 1999 version [attachment=76595:Moondance_page1.jpg] [attachment=76596:Moondance_page2.jpg] [attachment=76597:Moondance_page3.jpg]

Let the torture begin

[Bilbo]

No.

[Oscar South]

I've always enjoyed this bassline and felt that often times it just gets criticized on internet forums because that's just what happens there. Its not quite a 'proper' walking bassline but its not quite anything else either, it does its job and I enjoy it, regardless if its the result of a failure to achieve something else is beside the point; its an enjoyable part in its own right.

I like the idea of the outspoken speaking with actions rather than words purely because it'd be a very interesting post to read and there are some people on here who could do a good job of it, but unfortunately I severely doubt anyone actually would. Good idea though!

[Doddy]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1187411' date='Apr 4 2011, 09:17 AM']No.[/quote]



I'm not going to do it-the same way as I'm not going to rewrite Adam Claytons basslines with U2,just because I don't particularly like them.

I think a better challenge would be for the OP to write the line out again using proper notes.

[paul_5]

Awwww, don't be unkind Doddy, play nice.

[lowdown]

[quote name='frank' post='1187316' date='Apr 4 2011, 12:31 AM']Let the torture begin [/quote]


It would be torture with those chords - where did you get them from?

ASDA?



Garry

Edited April 4, 2011 by lowdown

[Doddy]

[quote name='paul_5' post='1187748' date='Apr 4 2011, 01:52 PM']Awwww, don't be unkind Doddy, play nice. [/quote]

I am being nice

[derrenleepoole]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1187411' date='Apr 4 2011, 09:17 AM']No.[/quote]

[derrenleepoole]

PS... them chords are nothing like how the tune goes!

[GonzoBass]

I still play Moondance two or three times a week,
for which I play the "head"
but my own walking line under the solos.


...and I am willing to wager that both Van Morrison and myself smile all the way to the bank.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='GonzoBass' post='1188051' date='Apr 4 2011, 06:02 PM']I still play Moondance two or three times a week,
for which I play the "head"
but my own walking line under the solos.


...and I am willing to wager that both Van Morrison and myself smile all the way to the bank.
[/quote]
Isn't 'Van Morrison and smile' in the same sentence an oxymoron?

[4 candles]

Typical case of "jazzers" (did you studdy at leeds??)

the most respected players on this forum cant help us mediocre guys out

They both slate mondance, but when tasked in writing an alternitive or "better line" to educate some new blood on a forum , they disnmiss it!

surely you legendary players/mentors wont deprive "willing students" of a good lesson in walking just because your predjudice of van morrison gets in the way?

I know for a fact, bilbo can play, I regulary play with a keys player whom plays with bilbo who tells me that bilbo is "a cat"


common guys, breathe and share some of your tallent.

Regards

Mark

[derrenleepoole]

I for one like Moondance, and like many other players on here, learnt how to do basic walking lines to it. It was my first tentative steps into 'jazz' playing.

I think the problem with labeling Moondance and for that Fever as jazz tunes is just that, they're not strictly jazz to begin with. Both are really blues tunes that are trumped up to sound jazzy. If you understand this, then the music makes a bit more sense.

Pay no heed to those that slag of such music, if you like it good for you, enjoy playing it All music has its place, and these tunes are no exception.

[Doddy]

[quote name='4 candles' post='1188424' date='Apr 4 2011, 10:20 PM']Typical case of "jazzers" (did you studdy at leeds??)

the most respected players on this forum cant help us mediocre guys out

They both slate mondance, but when tasked in writing an alternitive or "better line" to educate some new blood on a forum , they disnmiss it!

surely you legendary players/mentors wont deprive "willing students" of a good lesson in walking just because your predjudice of van morrison gets in the way?

I know for a fact, bilbo can play, I regulary play with a keys player whom plays with bilbo who tells me that bilbo is "a cat"


common guys, breathe and share some of your tallent.

Regards

Mark[/quote]


A couple of quick points... I've got no problem with Van Morrison,and I can take or leave Moondance as a song.
I didn't study at Leeds (or anywhere for that matter) and although i play as much jazz as i can,the majority of my gigs are pop/rock/funk so I wouldn't refer to myself as just a 'Jazzer'.

Now,if you want to hear good walking lines,listen to guys like Paul Chambers or Ray Brown-you'll get more from that than from me or Bilbo writing an alternative line to Moondance.

Derren is right when he says that it's not strictly a jazz tune. The problem (and dislike)comes when it is classed as a jazz number and played by any number of 'jazz' groups. When it's placed in that category,then it becomes judged against the great jazz bassists,and that is where it will always fall short.

Besides....I've got no way of scanning a manuscript

[frank]

dont get carried away lads this is just for fun
i can put my own line to this but it ends up being fairly similar to the original
also ive allready said i know the chords i included are wrong

No offence taken or meant

Any takers

[fatback]

[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='1188442' date='Apr 4 2011, 10:30 PM']I for one like Moondance, and like many other players on here, learnt how to do basic walking lines to it. It was my first tentative steps into 'jazz' playing.

I think the problem with labeling Moondance and for that Fever as jazz tunes is just that, they're not strictly jazz to begin with. Both are really blues tunes that are trumped up to sound jazzy. If you understand this, then the music makes a bit more sense.

Pay no heed to those that slag of such music, if you like it good for you, enjoy playing it All music has its place, and these tunes are no exception.[/quote]

+1000

Who says jazz owns it? It's a popular song, not a walking competition.

[Major-Minor]

Like most bass players, I've played Moondance many times with various bands over the last few years. But I've never really listened to the original recording in any detail. Till now ! (Isn't Spotify a great resource ?!).

I've listened to just 2 versions: The original Van Morrison and the Michael Buble big band version

I don't know who either bass player is, but the contrast is quite staggering. On the VM version, it sounds like the first play through (rehearsal), not even the first take ! The bass guitar player can't play in time for starters, and he actually seems to get lost towards the end. I can't believe the producer allowed this to be released.

By contrast, the MB double bass player is superb, absolutely "in the pocket", lovely fills and rakes, and the whole feel is great. And of course this arrangement, which I've played many times, is brilliant.

Now I can understand entirely why, on a jazz gig, some people (like Bilbo) would baulk at the idea of playing Moondance. The melody is very repetitive, the harmonic structure is simple, and jazzers tend to feel that the original VM recording was made by a bunch of non jazzers having a go at something vaguely jazzy.

But then I think, hey wait a minute, "So What" is melodically very (very !) repetitive. the harmonic structure is simple ..... so why are we jazzers happy to play this tune ?

I really don't have a clear answer to this. Is it something to do with association ? Miles Davis was a jazzer therefore So What must be good ? Van the Man was a pop/rock shouter therefore Moondance is tainted ? I really don't know.

In the end does it really matter ? The general public seem to like this tune and VM will have done very nicely out of it thank you !

Anyway, I've decided to do a Boot Camp Session on MD (sorry Bilbo, I know I will have gone down in your estimation !!).

I intend to look at the harmonic structure and the possible ways to vary the bass line.

(Am I going to regret this, I ask myself !!)

The Major

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='1188786' date='Apr 5 2011, 11:30 AM']But then I think, hey wait a minute, "So What" is melodically very (very !) repetitive. the harmonic structure is simple ..... so why are we jazzers happy to play this tune ?[/quote]

I don't like playing that tune much either

Having only heard the original once, I am delighted that the Major recognised it immediately for what it was.

I do occasionally play Moondance (once or twice a year?) and, given the right rhythm section, can swings its a*** off but that doesn't alter the fact that it is a weak piece. My feigned outrage is that it gets erroneously associated with Jazz by the uninitiated - bit like Michael Buble

I am sure Van has made millions off it. But so did Terry Wogan and The Floral Dance. THat doesn't make it ok...

And kudos to the Major for doing the deed. I really haven't got the time.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='4 candles' post='1188424' date='Apr 4 2011, 10:20 PM']I regulary play with a keys player whom plays with bilbo who tells me that bilbo is "a cat"[/quote]

Who's that then? I don't know anyone in Birmingham!! You must get out and about a bit!!

[lowdown]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='1188786' date='Apr 5 2011, 11:30 AM']By contrast, the [b]MB[/b] double bass player is superb, absolutely "in the pocket", lovely fills and rakes, and the whole feel is great.
[b]And of course this arrangement,[/b] which I've played many times, is brilliant.[/quote]


Yep it is great - Swings and is so well arranged with some great playing from the band all round.


As for the original - just a pop tune of its time that is used as a token attempt at a 'Jazz/Swing tune' by Function bands,
The Moondance Bass line is littered with bad time, no swing and clams all over the place towards the end.
VM's money may well be all gone - but we are still left with that Bassline....



Garry

Edited April 5, 2011 by lowdown

[GonzoBass]

[quote name='fatback' post='1188535' date='Apr 4 2011, 12:58 PM']Who says jazz owns it? It's a popular song, not a walking competition.[/quote]
I think we all agree...

"Moon Dance" is not "Jazz"
(although it seems anything without lyrics tends to be called "Jazz" these days),
but to the common listener it [u]is[/u] "Jazzy",
which IMHO is a far, far more dangerous term.

All it takes is for a reviewer to say that a singer "has a Jazzy style"
and the next thing you know she is adding "Route 66" to the list
and voilà!
A Diva is born.

I feel the tag "Jazzy" has been applied to "Moon Dance"
mainly due to that psuedo-walking line implying all the sophistication of "Jazz".

This was probably someone's plan all along
(be it the author, the bassist or the producer)-

To elevate the writer, the song and the listener's self image to the status of "Cool".

Even as they tap along on the 1 and the 3...

[4 candles]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1188855' date='Apr 5 2011, 12:12 PM']Who's that then? I don't know anyone in Birmingham!! You must get out and about a bit!![/quote]


a ginger gentleman, mr hudson from colchester curently residing at the 606 on a weekly basis with winsten bliset providing the low end in favour of me! traitor!

[frank]

Thanks Major
ill look forward to the boot camp looks like ill be be the only one though
had a dig around on the net for the chords didnt find the guitar version i had used but heres a piano version with the same chords[attachment=76775:Moondanc...sic_Plus.pdf]

[frank]

just had a closer look at the E11 leave out the open E and its Bm

[Bilbo]

[quote name='4 candles' post='1189771' date='Apr 5 2011, 09:58 PM']a ginger gentleman, mr hudson from colchester curently residing at the 606 on a weekly basis with winsten bliset providing the low end in favour of me! traitor![/quote]

The Red Reverend! I haven't seen/played with him in a while (since he moved to London really). Lovely player when he wants to be