The Same Old Songs

[flyfisher]

One of my favourite quotations (picked up on BassChat somewhere) is "Amateurs practice until they get it right, professionals practice until they don't get it wrong".

The two (amateur) bands I'm in seem to average about 8 gigs per year. We used to play only covers but over the past year or so have put together a set of original songs as well, so we can mix and match depending on the event. In the absence of a looming gig, rehearsals tend to be fairly unstructured 'jams' of new song suggestions, which can be frustratingly unproductive.

When a gig is confirmed we start to think about a suitable set list. As the gig gets nearer the pressure mounts and we rehearse more often until we typically do a couple of full rehearsals in the week before the gig. Our gigs are generally well-received and are typically better than rehearsals - I'm sure we all recognise the extra pressure of a live gig that concentrates everyone's attention! But after the gig, we seem to go back to square one - unstructured rehearsals, jamming new songs and hardly ever playing the whole set again.

This has led me to wonder if one of the big differences between amateur and professional musicians is the control of their boredom thresholds; i.e. amateurs find it tedious to play the same songs relentlessly and so never become stunningly good, whereas professionals will play (almost) the same songs every night and so, naturally, achieve their full potential. The Beatles are famously supposed to have become a great band during their daily 8 hour stints in Hamburg - how on earth did they maintain their motivation? (arguably they didn't for more than 5 years or so, but I don't think their experience can be regarded as typical!)

OK, a bit of a ramble, but I'd be interested to hear other views about this and how other bands handle such things.

[hillbilly deluxe]

I dont know if this is any help,but i listen to songs that im learning until im bored to tears with it.Only then do i pick up a bass and learn it,then it comes a lot easier to me.
Usually the bands that i've been in stick to the same basic set list for years,adding new songs when we found new better ones to replace the weaker songs in the set.Usually we would play 40 - 45 songs per gig,and about 15 - 30 at a festival depending on wether it was 1 or 2 spots.
Boring to some,if not most i know,but the Country scene is like no other that i've been involved in.It worked for my last band to the extent that we headlined above such artists as Paul Overstreet,George Hamilton,Dale Watson and others.

[paul_5]

I once sat through a seminar on rehearsal techniques (and jolly good it was too). The two guys running it said that most musicians don't stop as soon as a mistake occurs, and so end up 'practicing getting it wrong' more than they practice getting it right. The idea of practicing until you don't get it wrong is a really good one.

Think about band practice - how many times do you play a new tune before you get it right? 5, 6, 7? then you get it right.
Hooray, once more for luck, then move on. You got it wrong more times than you've got it right - so mathematically you're better at playing it wrong than playing it right.

I think that was the upshot of the seminar (I've missed a fair bit though), but it's stuck with me for ten years plus.

Cheers, Paul

[Bilbo]

I am not a pro but when I got to work every day, I go to work. I don't knob about (much) and get on with the tasks appointed. If I don't deliver, I risk censure and ultimately the sack. If you are being paid as a pro musician to deliver at that level, the same variables apply. If you are an amatuer, the return on your investment is not financial and the motivation to deliver does not come from the same space. Lots of people here say 'it has to be fun'. I think for some of us its more a case of 'it has to be good' or 'it has to be satisfying' (that satisfaction coming from a sense of a good job done). But can you 'push' people to excel is they are giving their time for nothing? Some you can, some you can't. Its a complex dynamic.

[lojo]

I don't think there is any absolute with me

I did my first gig with a band last week that Id not gigged with before, and to be honest, although I learnt the set well enough, I didn't really go that mad, as I don't find the songs I didn't already know that inspiring, but after doing this first gig with them I am now listening to those songs alot more whilst driving, not because I can't play them, but because the gig was very enjoyable and I am now seeing those songs in a different light (ie emotional motivation rather than work based as Bilbo mentioned above)

As non pro covers players, we owe it to our band members and the punters to know them, especially if there is a fee involved, however small, but I wouldn't stress about the difference between us and pros

That would be like me worrying about not practicing free kicks or corners enough as sunday football player


Re unproductive sessions, you need someone to take charge and drive it in most cases, but there really is nothing like a looming gig and a set plan to focus the mind

Edited April 4, 2011 by lojo

[BigRedX]

If you're finding it tedious to play the same songs over and over then the songs aren't the right ones for you to be playing.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1187473' date='Apr 4 2011, 10:06 AM']....I am not a pro but when I got to work every day, I go to work. I don't knob about (much) and get on with the tasks appointed. If I don't deliver, I risk censure and ultimately the sack. If you are being paid as a pro musician to deliver at that level, the same variables apply. If you are an amatuer, the return on your investment is not financial and the motivation to deliver does not come from the same space. Lots of people here say 'it has to be fun'. I think for some of us its more a case of 'it has to be good' or 'it has to be satisfying' (that satisfaction coming from a sense of a good job done). But can you 'push' people to excel is they are giving their time for nothing? Some you can, some you can't. Its a complex dynamic....[/quote]
+1

There are a lot of difference between a hobby and a job. Do you play a piece of music you hate as well as your favourite music? I hope I'm focused enough so that you don't know I hate Moondance when I'm playing it for the 20th time.


[quote name='BigRedX' post='1187481' date='Apr 4 2011, 10:24 AM']....If you're finding it tedious to play the same songs over and over then the songs aren't the right ones for you to be playing....[/quote]
That's the difference, right there!!

Edited April 4, 2011 by chris_b

[charic]

What's Practice?

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1187481' date='Apr 4 2011, 10:24 AM']If you're finding it tedious to play the same songs over and over then the songs aren't the right ones for you to be playing.[/quote]

Bit B&W that.

My band is pretty democratic, we all get to put forward songs to play (we play covers) and we all try to get along with each other's choices BUT there's no ducking the fact that there will be at least some songs in the set list that one or more of us will be playing because we have to, rather than because we like them.

I try to get all virtuous about it, and come up with basslines that make a song I dislike more fun to play. And who knows, maybe more fun to listen to, as well.

Unless I'm feeling mischievous, in which case I alleviate my boredom by dropping in famous riffs from other songs and seeing if anyone else notices. I'm particularly fond of seeing in how many different places I can put the [b][i]Taxman [/i][/b]riff. You might be surprised.

[tom1946]

[quote name='paul_5' post='1187472' date='Apr 4 2011, 10:04 AM']I once sat through a seminar on rehearsal techniques (and jolly good it was too). The two guys running it said that most musicians don't stop as soon as a mistake occurs, and so end up 'practicing getting it wrong' more than they practice getting it right. The idea of practicing until you don't get it wrong is a really good one.

Think about band practice - how many times do you play a new tune before you get it right? 5, 6, 7? then you get it right.
Hooray, once more for luck, then move on. You got it wrong more times than you've got it right - so mathematically you're better at playing it wrong than playing it right.

I think that was the upshot of the seminar (I've missed a fair bit though), but it's stuck with me for ten years plus.

Cheers, Paul[/quote]


I actually blushed when I read this

It's a church band and that's what we do so on Sunday our keyboard player can't even find his music! Needless to say it's never all right.

[JTUK]

I don't learn parts as such most of the time ..I just get to know how the songs goes, so once I have that framework of chords and arrangment, I put my lines in...trying to work with the drum part and other players.
This way the song is invaribly instantly tight, IMO, as I am not fighting a part, I am creating it within the realm of the cover.
This keeps me amused and also on my toes. If I know where the tunes needs to go, I can get there easily enough

Of course, I have to pay lipservice to what the bass part is trying to do...but I am not a slave to having to learn it thoroughly and therefore get bored with it. It is a bit pretentious to say the part is a living thing, but it does kind of evolve and change.

The bonus being I don't have to really take a whole lot of notice of players on the tracks that I don't have much in common with or even like.
Works for me....
I think, I can make most rhythm sections work very quickly this way.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1187529' date='Apr 4 2011, 10:53 AM']Bit B&W that.

My band is pretty democratic, we all get to put forward songs to play (we play covers) and we all try to get along with each other's choices BUT there's no ducking the fact that there will be at least some songs in the set list that one or more of us will be playing because we have to, rather than because we like them.[/quote]
I may have misunderstood but I thought the OP was talking about songs that the band had written rather than covers.

IMO if you are playing original songs and you don't like them, either you're in the wrong band or you need some better songs. No Originals band is obliged to play any song (unless you maybe have just one massive selling hit).

Actually thinking about it there shouldn't be any covers that you should be obliged to play either. There are so many great songs out there it should be possible to find the intersect between songs you like playing and songs that the audience enjoy.

[TimR]

I think there are quite a few amateur musicians who spend too much time practicing the wrong things. I don't know what the point of practicing the same tune over and over again is. If you are at a professional standard there should be very few tunes that you can't nail at first play through. There may be individual passages that are technically difficult for individual players that might need a few play throughs to get right.

I've been in bands where if we made a mistake the band leader would stop the tune and start again from the beginning. We could play the intros, first verses and chorus brilliantly but going from the second verse into the mid section was impossible. In better bands we would just practice from halfway through the second verse into the mid a few times. The better bands usually had musicians who were formally trained and understood the concept of practicing the hard bits.

It's about practicing the right things and making practice efficient.

BUT that's when learning a tune for the first time. Once a tune is learned there should be no real need to practice it other than a play through every few weeks if you're not gigging it.

Edited April 4, 2011 by TimR

[TimR]

If you're a pro you will be getting paid for rehearsal too. So it's unlikely that you will be rehearsing if you don't have a show lined up.

[Doddy]

First of all,a big thing for me is the term 'practice'. Practice is what you do at home in your own time. When (if) you get together as a band you should 'rehearse' and tidy up things-there's a big difference. You shouldn't be walking in to rehearsals and learning the material-it should be learned before hand.That is,of course,assuming that you are going to rehearse. There is a very high likelihood that you won't be rehearsing at all.There is every chance that you will walk into the gig and be expected to know the material. If it's not with your regular band you are expected to know the 'standard' songs, maybe even read the charts or have big ears and be able to busk.

[Raslee]

[quote name='charic' post='1187515' date='Apr 4 2011, 10:42 AM']What's Practice? [/quote]
+1

[4000]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1187473' date='Apr 4 2011, 10:06 AM']I think for some of us its more a case of 'it has to be good' or 'it has to be satisfying' (that satisfaction coming from a sense of a good job done). But can you 'push' people to excel is they are giving their time for nothing? Some you can, some you can't. Its a complex dynamic.[/quote]

Absolutely bob on.

[flyfisher]

Interesting. Fair point about the difference between practice (at home) and rehearsal (with the band) and I understand, and follow, that distinction.

I also loved the description of rehearsing a new song a few times until it's right and then moving on, making it such that the song has been played wrongly more times than correctly! My frustration is that that's exactly what we tend to do! I also get frustrated when we rehearse a song, a few mistakes are made (by anyone) and, typically, we have a messy ending - whereupon the singer declares "that sounds OK" and we move on to the next song.

Clearly, this would be unacceptable for a pro band but with a bunch of mates it's more difficult to manage. I understand the "it must be fun/satisfying" angle, but I guess this is slightly different for different people - but then we're into personalities and I guess we'd all agree that it can be difficult to fnd a bunch of people with exactly the same sort of outlook.

Personally, the most satisfying thing is when we really nail a song. Everyone in the band can sense when everything comes together and it's a real buzz - though I worry that's it's only a buzz because it doesn't happen all the time. Surely it should? Still, I guess even the pro bands have bad shows.

What's interesting me at the moment is that we're now working on recording all our originals and this is proving to be a very revealing process, because all the mistakes cannot be overlooked and/or forgotten. So we're all having to confront the reality that we're not as tight as some of us think we are! It was particularly interesting to start recording the first few songs without a drummer and using a drum machine as a click track. When it came to recording the real drum parts it was interesting to see the drummer's difficulty in keeping time to the drum machine! :-)

[Len_derby]

[quote name='tom1946' post='1187599' date='Apr 4 2011, 11:48 AM']I actually blushed when I read this

It's a church band and that's what we do so on Sunday our keyboard player can't even find his music! Needless to say it's never all right.[/quote]

Don't be too hard on yourself Tom. I'm in the same boat. I think of all the musical scenarios I've been in over the years playing for a church is the one where it's hardest to do a decent job. The odds are stacked against us in all sorts of ways.
I reckon that if I didn't also have a 'normal' band to play in I'd be a straight-jacket by now!
With the secular band we have total control over the choice of material and its arrangements, can take as much time and care as we need to get it right before playing songs live, and we're not subjected to head-in-the-clouds meglomaniacs (aka clergymen&women).
Mind you, playing in a church does help you build some skills. Such as transposition on the fly when the keyboard player launches off in an unexpected key.....

[lojo]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1187712' date='Apr 4 2011, 01:14 PM']First of all,a big thing for me is the term 'practice'. Practice is what you do at home in your own time. When (if) you get together as a band you should 'rehearse' and tidy up things-there's a big difference. You shouldn't be walking in to rehearsals and learning the material-it should be learned before hand.[/quote]


+1

For covers at least, learn the tunes at home, just get together for a run through, some endings, and perhaps sort a few parts that might need tweaking to suit the lineup you have as opposed to whats on the record

[TimR]

[quote name='charic' post='1187515' date='Apr 4 2011, 10:42 AM']What's Practice? [/quote]

Cheating.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1187481' date='Apr 4 2011, 10:24 AM']If you're finding it tedious to play the same songs over and over then the songs aren't the right ones for you to be playing.[/quote]

I can sort of understand that sentiment, but who would want to listen to their favourite album every day?

I guess amateurs have that choice whereas professionals don't (so much). A bit like going to work every weekday but then doing what you really want at the weekend.

[Pete Academy]

By learning our Steely Dan set, my playing, learning and listening skills have improved immensely, as I don't read music and have to play by ear.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1188307' date='Apr 4 2011, 08:48 PM']I can sort of understand that sentiment, but who would want to listen to their favourite album every day?

I guess amateurs have that choice whereas professionals don't (so much). A bit like going to work every weekday but then doing what you really want at the weekend.[/quote]
I don't know what your creative input has been in these songs, but in all my previous bands where the majority of the music had been written my me I could quite easily have the enthusiasm to play all the songs in the set at least once a day if not more often.

Edited April 4, 2011 by BigRedX

[risingson]

It depends what you mean by pro musicians. The term often lends itself to someone thinking about session players, but in reality it probably covers a multitude of different kinds of players including players in well known bands etc.

Everyone's interest levels wane over time. What makes you a good player aside from the theoretical and/or technical skills you might have is being able to create energy out of nothing. If you're appearing in front of a new audience that have never seen you or heard you before, you want to be able to leave the venue that night with everyone talking about you, and creating that energy from nothing to something has got to be one of the hardest things to do as a player, especially when you have played the same set night in and night out for a long time.