pete.young Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 [quote name='setekh' post='136302' date='Feb 8 2008, 09:27 AM']I also have to sing praises to thomann, musicstore and musik-produktiv - great prices and service (even with my 21% VAT)[/quote] musik-produktiv is an interesting one. I've had really good customer service from imuso.co.uk on several occasions. Imuso are musik-produktiv in the UK. I did once ask Imuso if they'd price match musik-produktiv though, and I'm still waiting for an answer ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 [quote name='barneythedog' post='136157' date='Feb 7 2008, 11:07 PM']I can assure you that I have a far higher tax burden here in France than those of you in the UK.[/quote] I'm curious about this statement - from what I've seen of the UK tax system vs other EU countries it seems that the multi-millionaires have a lower tax burden here whilst the normal working man pays hidden tax upon hidden tax, in which case you're clearly earning so much money that a bit of extra tax won't hurt! Obviously the UK is part of the EU, but some EU countries are net contributors and some are net recipients. The answer is to go on regular holidays to enjoy smooth fast Spanish roads that we paid for... Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Guys, [b]can those of you wishing to engage in a political debate about the EU start one in the Off-Topic section?[/b] It does have the makings of a good discussion, as long as you keep it civil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='136309' date='Feb 8 2008, 09:45 AM']Obviously the UK is part of the EU, but some EU countries are net contributors and some are net recipients. The answer is to go on regular holidays to enjoy smooth fast Spanish roads that we paid for... Alex[/quote] Or just eat their cheap tomatos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Guys I work for one of the worlds largest Microphone and pro audio manufacturers.... I'm just back from a sales meet where we discussed the issues with the Euro and issues with Thomann..... Main issues that affect our industry is here The fact we are currently F****d with the euro..... I work for a German company.... our cost prices to the UK have just risen by 3%.... we have had to introduce a price increase on certain product lines by 5%.... and on top of all of this we have lost 9% on the euro from last quarter.... So you can see that we are up against it, we are paying more for certain products that are available in Europe for less. If you also add into the equation of Shipping from europe.... it's a tough call. Now fortunately we are No 1 or 2 in the market place here and have an exceptionally good management and sales team... So with forward thinking we will protect our turnover. I have worked in this industry for 18 years now and every company I have worked for have all suffered the same problem with Thomann.... Now I'm not trying to spin a negative about Thomann.... I think they are extremely good at what they do... Majority of the time the problem lies with the manufacturers..... I'll give you an example... one of our main competitors, their German distribution has 70% of their business go through Thomann.... That's not something they can just walk away from... I'm sure the company I work for are in a similar situation.... but not to the same extent. I would love to get your views on how you think this situation could be resolved so that we could be more competitive here in the UK Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 [b][url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=13102&pid=136335&st=0&#entry136335"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...mp;#entry136335[/url][/b] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Those wanting an on-topic discussion about Thomann's service should probably look at the thread title... I suspect the common service problem with UK musical instrument etc shops lies with the vast majority of the employees being wannabe rock stars. But I can't see many failed rock stars wanting to work for Thomann's online sales department where they don't get to show off their 'chops'. Maybe if you visit their real shop you can get the service you know and dread... Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkThrust Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='136343' date='Feb 8 2008, 10:18 AM']Those wanting an on-topic discussion about Thomann's service should probably look at the thread title... I suspect the common service problem with UK musical instrument etc shops lies with the vast majority of the employees being wannabe rock stars. But I can't see many failed rock stars wanting to work for Thomann's online sales department where they don't get to show off their 'chops'. Maybe if you visit their real shop you can get the service you know and dread... Alex[/quote] I think you've got it exactly right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMART Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 (edited) [quote name='alexclaber' post='136343' date='Feb 8 2008, 10:18 AM']But I can't see many failed rock stars wanting to work for Thomann's online sales department where they don't get to show off their 'chops'. Maybe if you visit their real shop you can get the service you know and dread... Alex[/quote] Well, I've actually visited their German show rooms, about 10 years ago in fact when I was visiting German guitar dealers from Hamburg to Munich over a two week period to show off the SimS Custom L.E.D. system fitted to one of my all time fav basses a new WAL 5-string (Mach 3) and a Yamaha Pacifica 604 guitar. They've expanded beyond imagination since then but what I saw and experienced was pretty impressive and I've been in a great deal of music retailers around Europe, the UK and the USA in my time. They are based out in the deepest Bavarian countryside in a very small village. It started as a small family store and then soon after I visited they had just completed an enormous extension which included a modern entrance foyer and each department had its own spacious area for instruments. The guitar and bass department had their own sound proof demo rooms aside from the main show area. At the back there was what I can only describe as a mini theatre to demo PA and lighting systems around a small sound stage, incredibly impressive! The people that work in the 'shop' part were helpful, friendly and knowledgeable but it's a long way to go to find such service levels that all too often are sadly lacking in abundance in the UK stores save a few exceptions (like Martin Peterson and Alex at The Gallery in Camden Town) Obviously, since that visit things have grown and grown. I think I know who the German microphone manufacturer of note is mentioned above as we sell their microphones to our customers and have had similar discussions with them on pricing as a delivered price from Thomann was less than my UK delivered trade price which really caused problems when supplying sound system installs. So Thomann has often been the bane of anyone wishing to do some sensible biz with these superb microphones. The heart of the matter is the European competition law and the regulations that prohibit manufacturers trying to maintain some semblance of sensible pricing structure so that reasonable margins can be maintained by everyone in the business and provide enough income to fund support, service and pay for things like exhibition stands and people at trade and consumer shows. It's all paid for by the margins and when that gets pushed to the smallest degree something has to give. I think sometimes a lot of us out there in muso land think that these things just magically happen and are funded because the manufacturers and retailers are making so much money. Could't be further from the truth! I know of one UK distributor who recently lost a jewel in their acoustic guitar distribution crown that only made a profit of thousands (not even tens of thousands) of pounds on several millions of pounds turnover mainly because of the enormous costs involved in supporting their business and advertising their core brands to the degree demanded by the market and manufacturers. Madness!! The reality is that it is the margins made from selling product that pays the wages, the bills, the ability to give professional support to customers and good customer service. These things all have to be paid for and so the need for a balanced reasonable margin for a retailer or reseller. The manufacturers are really to blame (if they and other retailers are looking to know who is at fault from their point of view) because what started as Thomann being a convenient outlet for their end-of-lines and the desire to shift stock at knock-down prices to make way for new products has grown into a monster with a momentum that is increasingly difficult for them to influence in a balanced way. The net result now in the UK and other European countries is that their sale teams have been emasculated and are now uncompetitive even with generous trade prices because Thomann seek very slim profit margins balanced against a massive volume of turnover. It's short-termism and the pressure to hit annual sales targets and move stock by manufacturers that has created the problem that the major discounting from Thomann is causing them and is now biting them well and truly on their proverbial behind. That is one of the most negative problems with the MI industry, it's full of people not looking at the longer term side of their business. Phew!! What a rant!! But...the pricing Thomann is bringing is great for the end-users!! Can't argue with that but from my point of view as a reseller it is really frustrating when I have to sell a beautiful German microphone at between 5 and 10% margin just so I won't miss the sale! It's almost a favour we do for our customers who buy our custom built guitars and basses. Now let's be honest here, who of us as either craftsmen, trained technicians, experienced managers, trained whatever would work ourselves for that sort of margin if that's all we could make, would we? There would be practically nought to invest in new tools, equipment, materials, etc but when we want to buy something well we don't consider that. But if we all want rock-bottom prices that will eventually stifle or kill off any decent service or retail companies then we can't turn around and start complaining about the lack of really good quality music shops (particularly bass) that we can go and spend time in trying out new and old gear in a great atmosphere with great service, etc, etc, etc. We can't have it both ways. Oscar Wilde said: A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing. Just some rambling thoughts on Thomann... Ciao Ian Edited February 8, 2008 by SMART Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 +1 to all that - sounds better from the horses mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMART Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='136792' date='Feb 8 2008, 07:06 PM']+1 to all that - sounds better from the horses mouth.[/quote] I thank you! Ciao Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 I was about to post a long reply about why the EU is a good thing but my missus has just informed me that I'm getting a bit sad and need to spend less time at the computer and I'm beginning to think that she may have a point.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMART Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 (edited) [quote name='peteb' post='136822' date='Feb 8 2008, 08:07 PM']I was about to post a long reply about why the EU is a good thing but my missus has just informed me that I'm getting a bit sad and need to spend less time at the computer and I'm beginning to think that she may have a point....[/quote] Yep, know the feeling and am trying to work on it! But...I just had to pour it out...because it's all true fellow Basschaters! The manufacturers have lost control of the retail market to Thomann and no-one had the gumption to manage it properly and they have themselves to blame. There I've said it! Or.. you can do what Fender did and is doing (and is now being followed by Gibson the brand destroyer) and control their own pan-European distribution system and fix it!! Ciao Ian PS I wrote the above while she was out shopping!! Edited February 9, 2008 by SMART Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 EU politics should be in the other thread - strangely quiet. Perhaps the OP did not comprehend the title he gave the thread or his post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 In the context of the intent of the OP it is most of all the cost of premises and staff that makes business in this country so expensive. How much do you think the Bass Centre shop in the city costs. Thats the City of London, just outside the square mile, probably the most expensive place in the world apart from Wall St. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 [quote name='SMART' post='136746' date='Feb 8 2008, 06:02 PM']Well, I've actually visited their German show rooms, about 10 years ago in fact when I was visiting German guitar dealers from Hamburg to Munich over a two week period to show off the SimS Custom L.E.D. system fitted to one of my all time fav basses a new WAL 5-string (Mach 3) and a Yamaha Pacifica 604 guitar. They've expanded beyond imagination since then but what I saw and experienced was pretty impressive and I've been in a great deal of music retailers around Europe, the UK and the USA in my time. They are based out in the deepest Bavarian countryside in a very small village. It started as a small family store and then soon after I visited they had just completed an enormous extension which included a modern entrance foyer and each department had its own spacious area for instruments. The guitar and bass department had their own sound proof demo rooms aside from the main show area. At the back there was what I can only describe as a mini theatre to demo PA and lighting systems around a small sound stage, incredibly impressive! The people that work in the 'shop' part were helpful, friendly and knowledgeable but it's a long way to go to find such service levels that all too often are sadly lacking in abundance in the UK stores save a few exceptions (like Martin Peterson and Alex at The Gallery in Camden Town) Obviously, since that visit things have grown and grown. I think I know who the German microphone manufacturer of note is mentioned above as we sell their microphones to our customers and have had similar discussions with them on pricing as a delivered price from Thomann was less than my UK delivered trade price which really caused problems when supplying sound system installs. So Thomann has often been the bane of anyone wishing to do some sensible biz with these superb microphones. The heart of the matter is the European competition law and the regulations that prohibit manufacturers trying to maintain some semblance of sensible pricing structure so that reasonable margins can be maintained by everyone in the business and provide enough income to fund support, service and pay for things like exhibition stands and people at trade and consumer shows. It's all paid for by the margins and when that gets pushed to the smallest degree something has to give. I think sometimes a lot of us out there in muso land think that these things just magically happen and are funded because the manufacturers and retailers are making so much money. Could't be further from the truth! I know of one UK distributor who recently lost a jewel in their acoustic guitar distribution crown that only made a profit of thousands (not even tens of thousands) of pounds on several millions of pounds turnover mainly because of the enormous costs involved in supporting their business and advertising their core brands to the degree demanded by the market and manufacturers. Madness!! The reality is that it is the margins made from selling product that pays the wages, the bills, the ability to give professional support to customers and good customer service. These things all have to be paid for and so the need for a balanced reasonable margin for a retailer or reseller. The manufacturers are really to blame (if they and other retailers are looking to know who is at fault from their point of view) because what started as Thomann being a convenient outlet for their end-of-lines and the desire to shift stock at knock-down prices to make way for new products has grown into a monster with a momentum that is increasingly difficult for them to influence in a balanced way. The net result now in the UK and other European countries is that their sale teams have been emasculated and are now uncompetitive even with generous trade prices because Thomann seek very slim profit margins balanced against a massive volume of turnover. It's short-termism and the pressure to hit annual sales targets and move stock by manufacturers that has created the problem that the major discounting from Thomann is causing them and is now biting them well and truly on their proverbial behind. That is one of the most negative problems with the MI industry, it's full of people not looking at the longer term side of their business. Phew!! What a rant!! But...the pricing Thomann is bringing is great for the end-users!! Can't argue with that but from my point of view as a reseller it is really frustrating when I have to sell a beautiful German microphone at between 5 and 10% margin just so I won't miss the sale! It's almost a favour we do for our customers who buy our custom built guitars and basses. Now let's be honest here, who of us as either craftsmen, trained technicians, experienced managers, trained whatever would work ourselves for that sort of margin if that's all we could make, would we? There would be practically nought to invest in new tools, equipment, materials, etc but when we want to buy something well we don't consider that. But if we all want rock-bottom prices that will eventually stifle or kill off any decent service or retail companies then we can't turn around and start complaining about the lack of really good quality music shops (particularly bass) that we can go and spend time in trying out new and old gear in a great atmosphere with great service, etc, etc, etc. We can't have it both ways. Oscar Wilde said: A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing. Just some rambling thoughts on Thomann... Ciao Ian[/quote] Well said that man..... Your exactly right that it is down to the manufacturers..... It will be interesting to se who will be the first to take a stand over this.... I know the Mic company I work for are in the process of doing this so they can regain control of their business...... It's gonna take a long time..... but it's happening...... I was told today from my boss to walk away from a deal I put together for £45k because to meet the margin that they could buy from Europe from was ludicrous.... Let's hope it get resolved eventually! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lfalex v1.1 Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='136934' date='Feb 9 2008, 12:11 AM']In the context of the intent of the OP it is most of all the cost of premises and staff that makes business in this country so expensive. How much do you think the Bass Centre shop in the city costs. Thats the City of London, just outside the square mile, probably the most expensive place in the world apart from Wall St.[/quote] Agreed, but I don't recall any of us forcing them to move from Wapping High Street... That was probably cheaper methinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass-ic Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Thoman arent the cheapest on everything, you still have to get to it and do your own research. as ever, vote with your feet. if shop can't be arsed to help you, dont spend your money there! if they dont do euro price matches, ask them to! Most retailers do these days. THis country needsa good kick up the backside on many fronts, start by telling the retailers what it is you expect as service, tey might catch on. If you chose to do nothing, nothing will change. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 [quote name='Alfie' post='135812' date='Feb 7 2008, 03:21 PM']So in conclusion... I am never again going to subject myself to the obtuse shop assistants, extortionate prices or limited variety of rubbish British music shops. Hooray![/quote] to be fair though you can sometimes bag a bargain from your local. (erm music shop that is) I know what you mean tho, I HATE to be stereotypical (although you REALLY would NOT know it, would you? ) But i think they're just much better at this whole shop thing in germany. There is one big problem tho which is at the moment the euro exchange rate is pretty dire. I think one of the reasons for that is we are importing a lot of our goods rather than buying from british stores. Which is bad for the economy in case you didn't know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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