Amplifying a double bass LOUDLY

[BobVbass]

Turn down!! Pah! I pour cold custard down the wellingtons of feedback - I can run my Kent Armstrong right in front of my Barefaced Super Twelve with an Ashdown ABM running full tilt and have no problem at all - loud enough to run without a PA if needed in a decent sized hall and shake the plaster from the ceiling. I hate not feeling my trousers flap so it's either Mag pickups or an exclusive diet of beans for me......I really couldn't get anywhere near with any of the piezos I tried and the fishman plat pro (I couldn't get any volume at all without the phase switch and barely audible above the drummer with it)

These look good as well btw - out fo stock at the mo but they're getting some more made - [url="http://soundcomposites.com/basspickups"]http://soundcomposites.com/basspickups[/url]

[Clarky]

Thanks all for advice. I think I am going to try out some of those foam sound hole plugs and add a mag pickup so I have the choice of piezo, mag or both (since my Coda combo has two channels). Surely that should make things better?!!!

Edited April 10, 2011 by Clarky

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Clarky' post='1194789' date='Apr 10 2011, 05:17 PM']Thanks all for advice. I think I am going to try out some of those foam sound hole plugs and add a mag pickup so I have the choice of piezo, mag or both (since my Coda combo has two channels). Surely that should make things better?!!![/quote]

Sounds like a great place to start. I still think, from a sound tech's perspective, getting a good stage sound with optimally positioned monitoring is the most important starting point and once you have that a lot of these problems disappear. The double bass body has a lot of resonance in the lower mids. If the stage space and material does also, and you're exciting exactly those frequencies with your combo coupled directly to it, then you will always struggle. Position the monitor differently and/or absorb a lot of that boom and you will not only improve the feedback rejection, you'll also get a better sound for the band as a whole and be able to hear more clearly at a given volume setting. It's always tempting to look for a high-tech solution (feedback killers, parametric EQs, gates) but simply moving an cab to a more optimal position can achieve much more. When I was going out doing sound regularly, my secret weapon was light-duty truss with heavy stage cloth - not always practical but I got more compliments about the sound in difficult spaces when using that, than anything else more high-tech! Plus it looks cool

[oldslapper]

[quote name='Clarky' post='1194789' date='Apr 10 2011, 05:17 PM']Thanks all for advice. I think I am going to try out some of those foam sound hole plugs and add a mag pickup so I have the choice of piezo, mag or both (since my Coda combo has two channels). Surely that should make things better?!!![/quote]


I have to say that the TM piezo I bought here has a lot of headroom, without feedback.
I have combined it with my Schaller mag, mixed through the K&K twin channel preamp, into the CMD121P, and I seem to have a good balance of volume and string and natural body resonance.
Mind you I only compete with 2 jazz guitarists in the quartet (and no drums!), so I'm not competing for "sound space" as you appear to be Clarky.

Your two channel Coda option would seem a good route to try.

John

[Gareth Hughes]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1194813' date='Apr 10 2011, 05:40 PM']If the stage space and material does also, and you're exciting exactly those frequencies with your combo coupled directly to it, then you will always struggle.[/quote]

That's a very important point indeed LawrenceH. More often than not I've found that the culprit in generating feedback isn't the bass or amp itself, but frequencies from other sources. I do a regular restaurant gig with a pianist. I've stood laughing during intros where I'm not playing and watched the input meter on my GenzBenz head light up with every vocal line. Once that's happening, you're fighting a losing battle. In that particular scenario, after I exhausted the 'can you turn your vocal down?' option, I had to move the vocal monitor completely away from me as a last resource. Worked a treat.

Given the large number of guys onstage with you Clarky, it might be an idea to have a diplomatic talk with the guys that are in the same sonic space as you. Do the keyboards/guitars/whatever need THAT much low-end? If they don't it could lead to a better, workable volume level overall. And then once again the band will sound amazing because of the bass player and NO-ONE will know why

[Cat Burrito]

Ah, the age old problem. It seems to relate to how experienced the sound engineer is, at least from my experience

[quote name='Clarky' post='1194387' date='Apr 10 2011, 10:51 AM']Just a thought. - what about Di ing from Fishman and using some sort of in -ear monitoring so I don't need the amp next to me?[/quote]
I only ever D.I & use a monitor. I'd explore this option personally

[quote name='slobluesine' post='1194771' date='Apr 10 2011, 04:58 PM']i notice Al Gare, Imelda May's Bass player, plays electric these days, so.... he's either got an endoresment that was too good to turn down (seems to play one of the new Burns a lot)[/quote]
He's playing a bass guitar a lot more but he still seems to mainly be on the upright. I saw him live just a few months ago unless this is a much more recent thing?

[fatback]

[quote name='bob_pickard' post='1194787' date='Apr 10 2011, 05:16 PM']Turn down!! Pah! I pour cold custard down the wellingtons of feedback - I can run my Kent Armstrong right in front of my Barefaced Super Twelve with an Ashdown ABM running full tilt and have no problem at all - loud enough to run without a PA if needed in a decent sized hall and shake the plaster from the ceiling. /basspickups[/url][/quote]



+1 on the Kent Armstrong. I was surprised how double-bassy it sounds. Best mag I've tried so far.

Frankly, I've enough to worry about just playing. Sound problems would leave me a gibbering wreck.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Clarky' post='1194789' date='Apr 10 2011, 05:17 PM']Thanks all for advice. I think I am going to try out some of those foam sound hole plugs and add a mag pickup so I have the choice of piezo, mag or both (since my Coda combo has two channels). Surely that should make things better?!!![/quote]

I wonder if it might make sense for you to arrange your own monitoring - have an in-ear for just the bass, so the on-stage volume doesn't matter too much?

[Mr Bassman]

HI clarky,

I've had a busy gig weekend so I've just seen this thread.
I was wondering how you got on.

Did you not use the notch filter on the Coda? Should be able to dial out any rogue frequency,

And raising the Coda off the floor reduces boom and gets it closer to your ears

Another suggestion is having an extension speaker (i.e. 10" mackie) as a monitor on a stand, behind you but above the bass body.

You can't stop a good bass picking up a loud drumkit, I have to dampen my strings with both hands during the dreaded drum solo!

Taken from the Coda manual
Tilt Mechanism
In some settings, such as a hollow stage or small, “boomy” room, your amp or enclosure will produce too much bass. One way to cut unwanted bass output is to use the built in tiltback feature to lift the front of the cabinet, reducing the coupling to the floor. To do this, pull the stand into its forward position and set the combo in place on the floor. The stand is spring loaded so when you pick up the unit, the stand will spring back into its storage position. You may want to use the tilt stand at all times in order to aim the high frequency output of the speaker toward your ear so that you can better hear the amp.

Notch/Low Cut Filter
The notch/low cut filter is a fixed amplitude, variable frequency type that inserts either an 18 dB cut or a 12 dB per octave rolloff at frequencies between 30 and 800 Hz, depending on the position of the control. Approximate frequency settings are noted on the frequency control. Note that the first half of the control’s rotation affects frequencies from 30 to 70 Hz, the last half of the rotation affects frequencies between 70 and 800 Hz. This is done so that there is plenty of control in the critical low frequency range. [i][b]The notch filter is used to remove a given feedback frequency[/b][/i] to reduce feedback “howl”. The low cut filter is used to reduce the bass output in cases where room location or instrument/pickup combination results in “boomy” sound. To use either, push the on/off switch to turn on the filter circuit then select the filter type using the notch/cut switch. Start with the control fully counterclockwise and gradually turn it clockwise until the desired effect is achieved. Experiment with the position of the control to give you the sound you like best.

You've had a lot to contend with in the last week or so, it takes time to get to know new gear.

You've got it all at your fingertips, but under pressure it's not easy to get the most out of what you have,

The plat pro usually sorts my gremlins without too much amp twiddling, but I'll say it again, if that bass drum is too loud / close you've no chance.
Either position yourself away from the kit or sack the drummer!

Edited April 11, 2011 by Mr Bassman

[Clarky]

Thanks Keith, I did try using notch filter and permutations of putting the Coda and /or the extension cab at head height behind me but without much success. I think your final comment probably says it all, there's very little I can do when so near the drummer! I have over a month til our next gig so plenty of time to sort this out - and in between times am off on hols for a week to the Alps (which is why I am up so early)

Edited April 11, 2011 by Clarky

[fonzoooroo]

Others have hinted, but is the problem that your bass is too good? A good bass is a good, big resonating box. Thin, low-density fronts, good bass bar shaping, correctly placed/tensioned soundposts, good bridge fitting etc. all help acoustic sound significantly... and the better that acoustic sound is, the more it'll feed back, as it'll pick up vibrations from the amp/band/stage.

That's an excuse to go cheap bass hunting, get a real shocker, and fit steels with a mag pickup. block the soundholes, use the tricks above to damp the tailpiece and string afterlength... and if you still get trouble, fill the whole thing with expanding foam!

Never tried this, but logical thought and all that:
You might get some milage from some acoustic damping between you and the drummer, you and your amp etc... Raise the amp up, (again, isolated from the stage, so a layer of foam/gramma pad/whatever) and fire the speaker away from the body of the bass (or at least, not directly at the back of it - aim for a corner in the upper bouts if you're really stuck for space) and a few stands supporting vertical carpet/foam/whatever on each side of you. Don't point a monitor directly at it either - again, aim at a corner, or could you even use a small speaker high up, rather than a conventional wedge?

Another place that the vibration can get back "in" is through the endpin. A good layer of soft stuff underneath will help disconnect the bass from the stage. (A "wolf" ball or similar on the end of the pin, and foam with a piece of board glued to the top)

Finally, once you've got it basically tamed acoustically, what about running a dedicated feedback eliminator in the FX loop of your amp? I use a little Behringer Shark to preamp the clicky on my EUBs, and tend to go for a high pitched click sound - that can feed back if I'm close up to a loud amp, and the Shark catches it.

[Gareth Hughes]

[quote name='Clarky' post='1195319' date='Apr 11 2011, 04:46 AM']and in between times am off on hols for a week to the Alps (which is why I am up so early) [/quote]

See - and there was us all feeling sympathetic for you and now you're off to the Alps?!?!?!?!?!?!?? Anyone know if Rattlin Bone's drummer can bring a two kick drums to the next gig?

[Monckyman]

+1 on "In-ear monitors are also a good option - used in conjunction with your amp. "
Speaking as a sound man the pickup you use will definitely make a difference. eg, on Thurs I had an American touring band in a church, and the double bassist/drummer used a B-Brand D1(the older model) and that took 5 minutes to eq and get him sat nicely in the monitors. No amp, though they are a quiet band.
Saturday in a small venue with a local band, cheaper DB(plywood) with a Fischmann and I was rolling off loads of low mids to prevent hooting..And that was with only two accoustics and a vocal in the band!
However, in your situation with that many people onstage, you`re hardly ever going to get a proper chance to EQ your bass to the stage you`re on and that goes for "positioning" your amp also, and so you will always struggle.
The in -ears solution should work well, you can experiment with sealed or open style headphone buds or even expand the idea and stick it all through a small mixer with an ambient mic on a stand to blend in the band.You could get away without using a beltpack initially, just use the headphones out from the mixer.
Sounds a faff but once you had it all in a little rack it would throw up in minutes and you may find you don`t need the large amp so much as a cube type monitoring amp.
MM

[keeponehandloose]

Seriously,£3.50 for a beach ball,what have you got to loose.
Played on a hollow wooden stage on Saturday
300W amp turned up halfway,2ft from the vassals no hint of feedback.

[TheRev]

[quote name='hubrad' post='1194530' date='Apr 10 2011, 01:03 PM']I have an AI combo too, which makes for a great natural sound pretty much anywhere in the room except for your own position - the downward-firing speaker rather seems to spread the sound past your ankles, so folks at the back will get a great bass sound but you have no idea what you're playing![/quote]


I actually like the sound I get from a downfiring speaker -pop it in the corner and I can get a nice full woody sound. The caveats here are that my band is fairly quiet (acoustic guitar and a respectful, quiet drummer), I'm not going through the PA and I'm not using a full DB but an Eminence EUB. On a small stage with limited choice for amp placemment I've found that even if I raise my cab to ear height (I use an X type keyboard/amp stand) I can't go as loud before feedback compared to having my cabs downward firing. Of course, this could all be totally subjective, but I find I spned less time fighting feedback (and therefore playing more) with a downward firing setup than a forward firing one.

In an ideal world I'd persuade the singer to put his gig money towards a bigger PA that I coud put the bass through, then we could drop the onstage volume, feedback problems go away and the world would be full of embroidery and fluffy kittens.

[ficelles]

[quote name='keeponehandloose' post='1195538' date='Apr 11 2011, 11:35 AM']Seriously,£3.50 for a beach ball,what have you got to loose.[/quote]

I'd seriously worry about taking the soundpost out. £3.50 for a beach ball, £50 for a soundpost reset if you get it wrong.

Are these here Kent Armstrong pickups still available? Can't find a link anywhere...

ficelles

[keeponehandloose]

No no,I don't mean take the post out.the ball needs to not
Come into contact with the Soundpost.all it's doing is damping
The bass bar.
Like squeezing the body between your knees

[BobVbass]

Yes Kent Armstrong pickups are still available: Aaron Armstrong (kent's son) makes them to order for £90 a go - best to send him a template of your string spacing and fingerboard for a perfect fit.

Aaron can be contacted at - [email protected]

Armstrong pickups
Unit 31
Old surrenden manor
Bethersden
Kent
TN26 3DL

Tel: 01233 822120

He's an Incredibly helpful chap - highly recommended

[fatback]

[quote name='bob_pickard' post='1196509' date='Apr 12 2011, 08:33 AM']Yes Kent Armstrong pickups are still available: Aaron Armstrong (kent's son) makes them to order for £90 a go - best to send him a template of your string spacing and fingerboard for a perfect fit.

Aaron can be contacted at - [email protected]

Armstrong pickups
Unit 31
Old surrenden manor
Bethersden
Kent
TN26 3DL

Tel: 01233 822120

He's an Incredibly helpful chap - highly recommended[/quote]


And as mentioned in another thread, make sure you ask him to wire the pickup poles.

Also make sure you ask him to supply the necessary phono to female jack lead ready soldered. Otherwise you'll be hunting back of the sofa for a jack socket and spending quality time with your soldering iron.

[BobVbass]

yes good point!

Actually while I think of it another really good item for reducing feedback that I keep forgetting to post up here is a decent thick rubber bung/foot for your spike- the difference it makes can be remarkable

[Clarky]

I have ordered some custom fitted f-hole plugs (from Doug's Plugs as in an earlier post). £60 is a lot for foam, I realise, but hopefully they will fit perfectly (I have sent templates of my f-holes, oo err missus) and better than any DIY solution, plus they are barely visible to an audience. I will give these a try out - my sitting room floor is exposed wooden floorboards and so does a very good approximation of a boomy wooden stage. If these do the trick then fabulous. If they don't then I will go the mag pickup route, either a Kent Armstrong or a Moses graphite. My only argument against a mag pickup is that I really like the Silver Slaps strings on my DB and don't really want to change them (although I do have set of Presto's that would do the job, I just prefer the Silver Slaps marginally).

Edited April 12, 2011 by Clarky

[BobVbass]

Now I'm impressed; typing a post while skiing - now that's multitasking!!!

[Clarky]

[quote name='bob_pickard' post='1197730' date='Apr 13 2011, 06:15 AM']Now I'm impressed; typing a post while skiing - now that's multitasking!!![/quote]
There's nothing to be impressed about - I am a lazy snowboarder (Imountain half-day, doss around village/apartment the other half-day) with a Blackberry (that supposedly is for work to be able to contact me if needed but really I use to access the internet). Its important to pace yourself on a ski holiday I think

Edited April 13, 2011 by Clarky

[Gareth Hughes]

Mods - can we ban Clarky until he gets back from his holiday? I'm already depressed listening to the rain outside

[fatback]

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' post='1197814' date='Apr 13 2011, 09:26 AM']Mods - can we ban Clarky until he gets back from his holiday? I'm already depressed listening to the rain outside [/quote]

+1

A well brought up young, man should have the decency to lie about such things. 'I'm now posting from a sewer deep beneath Battersea' .

Edited April 13, 2011 by fatback