What to do...

[Gust0o]

I suspect there's no magic panacea for this; however, let us persevere.

So, I play in a band. The band has me; a good drummer; and a guitarist from the Job Centre.

After previous digressions, we have now decided to settle on being a rock band. Think Black Spiders, etc, and you'll have a good idea of what populates our day dreams.

On the whole, it's working out - we've put together a decent collection of original stuff, alongside a few choice covers.

My thoughts runs as follows:

[list]The sound is too thin with the single guitarist - chopping and changing between lead and rythmn is confusing, and also placing more onus on myself to 'double up' the guitar parts
The rythmn parts are very plain if fast - I'm worried this is hampering my own development as a player; some of you can belt out some amazing licks - should I not be attempting to do the same? why do I feel confined to root notes - or is there nothing wrong in this?
[/list]

The long and short is it's got me doubting myself a little - am I missing a trick? What I'm producing now is functional but a little dull for me. Is there some magic rule my tutelage should have thrown out that I could apply now? Scott set me down this route after the Yorkshire bass bash - now I'm throwing it open to the floor.

I think I was just after some tips. I mean, if the sound is a little thin, surely it's a great platform for me to do more? How do people write their lines? I start with the drums, then follow the guitar chord progression - am I off my block-rocking-beats with that one?

[Chris2112]

I'd go for the Geddy Lee approach. Be supportive but creative in your own right. After all, you're not there as a stooge to prop the guitarist up.

[Gust0o]

Cheers Chris - I was thinking I'd made a hash of explaining myself. I think some of it will come down to the structure of the writing approach - that Job Centre will often walk in with a riff, we'll jam it, and next rehearsal we'll find ourselves being asked if we remember "that song". Semantics, eh? I think that could be a crux for some of the issues - walking in with a lead riff, or somesuch, does not a song make; so asking us simply to back in mimic fashion isn't going to work.

What I've been doing - or trying to do - is break out the chords some, to hit a few more notes than just the root; that and looking at the patterns of notes my favourite bass players use, to get some ideas of what works. I'm still not sure, mind.

[Dave Vader]

Sounds like you're thinking the right way, can be worth recording the guitar riffs onto something so you can work out what goes well underneath them when nobody else is listening. Allows you to make horrible mistakes on the way to the right thing.
Check out Geezer Butler on early Sabbath records, he pretty much solos underneath Iommis solos, but all with enough rhythmic intent that it doesn's sound w***y and ridiculous. 8th note roots have a place, do not underestimate them either. Try everything you can throw at it while you're rehearsing, and you should find something that works, and is neither dull not too showy off.
Oh, and when he goes for that lead solo and it sounds a bit thin, hit that thing harder and louder to fill the hole, maybe even go for the lemmy approach and wang in a load of chords.

[DanOwens]

Effects, dude!

I jammed with a analog-synth player (monophonic) and a drummer the other week and ran a bi-amped rig where the distorted lines were played with an octave-up pedal. My sound was HUGE and the lack of any chordal players was irrelevant.

Dan

[Sawtooth]

[quote name='Gust0o' post='1195831' date='Apr 11 2011, 03:31 PM']So, I play in a band. The band has me; a good drummer; and a guitarist from the Job Centre.[/quote]


[quote name='Gust0o' post='1195859' date='Apr 11 2011, 03:55 PM']that Job Centre will often walk in with a riff, we'll jam it, and next rehearsal we'll find ourselves being asked if we remember "that song".[/quote]

"Job Centre" ? What does that mean?

Edit: that wasn't a rhetorical question by the way, I've just never heard this terminology.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Sawtooth

[chris_b]

I don't like bands that have a solid wall of racket courtesy of a rhythm guitarist. If there are only 3 of you you'll make it sound much worse if you try to fill all the gaps. In a trio you got to learn to love the spaces.

[Gust0o]

It was a nickname, Sawtooth - I had previously commented that his mercurial guitar talents might be the outcome of a mis-matching of some job selection/attributes process. Like the time when it said I should be a strategy manager... oh wait

[quote]I don't like bands that have a solid wall of racket courtesy of a rhythm guitarist. If there are only 3 of you you'll make it sound much worse if you try to fill all the gaps. In a trio you got to learn to love the spaces.[/quote]

That sounds like a mindset thing, Chris. We are trying to fill all the spaces, that's for certain. The only real space I can see is shaped like a decent lead guitarist, for some flair. Suggestion might be to have a think about that one?

Edited April 11, 2011 by Gust0o

[Fat Rich]

You could just get another guitarist.... but this a great opportunity for you to have some fun with your basslines. Less is usually more but during the solos you can go for it a bit more.

To start off I just pretty much follow the changes but move around with some fifths, octaves, and fifths below the root, maybe some sixths too. Add some chromatic approaches and pentatonic / blues scale fills and that's a start. Then I try mixing up the rhythm a bit and seeing what I can get away with.

Occasionally I'll come up with something new and interesting that complements or improves the song on the spot (usually influenced by whatever I'm listening to that week!), but mostly inspiration strikes when I listen back to the track.

So record some rehearsals and listen to them as often as possible, you'll probably come up with something that way.

Good luck!

Edited April 11, 2011 by Fat Rich

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='Fat Rich' post='1195932' date='Apr 11 2011, 04:43 PM']but mostly inspiration strikes when I listen back to the track.

So record some rehearsals and listen to them as often as possible, you'll probably come up with something that way.

Good luck![/quote]

This, very much so, hum a lot, hum often, listen to the real versions, and when they're stuck in your head, hum out basslines and then get them into your fingers later on.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='Fat Rich' post='1195932' date='Apr 11 2011, 04:43 PM']You could just get another guitarist.... but this a great opportunity for you to have some fun with your basslines. Less is usually more but during the solos you can go for it a bit more.

To start off I just pretty much follow the changes but move around with some fifths, octaves, and fifths below the root, maybe some sixths too. Add some chromatic approaches and pentatonic / blues scale fills and that's a start. Then I try mixing up the rhythm a bit and seeing what I can get away with.

Occasionally I'll come up with something new and interesting that complements or improves the song on the spot (usually influenced by whatever I'm listening to that week!), but mostly inspiration strikes when I listen back to the track.

So record some rehearsals and listen to them as often as possible, you'll probably come up with something that way.

Good luck![/quote]

The good new is that we record everything, warts and all, over multiple takes. I think that's the best bit of discipline that we have.

Is it pretty much the case that I can play anything with supports the chord changes/rythmn? Sorry if that's an amateurish question, but I guess that's where my level of knowledge currently is - if he's banging away in E then I can work my way around the chord, try the chromatics, etc, and provided I don't clash with the chord change or rythmn I should be on solid ground?

Sorry, working this out in my head.

[Sawtooth]

Maybe gain some confidence and assuredness by listening to some stong bass/drum/guitar tunes?



Oh, and I personally find that a slightly 'misplaced' headstock always brought the guitarist down a peg or two.

Edit: please ignore [i]all[/i] advice I may proffer, because I seem to have started talking b*llocks.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Sawtooth

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='Gust0o' post='1195944' date='Apr 11 2011, 04:51 PM']The good new is that we record everything, warts and all, over multiple takes. I think that's the best bit of discipline that we have.

Is it pretty much the case that I can play anything with supports the chord changes/rythmn? Sorry if that's an amateurish question, but I guess that's where my level of knowledge currently is - if he's banging away in E then I can work my way around the chord, try the chromatics, etc, and provided I don't clash with the chord change or rythmn I should be on solid ground?

Sorry, working this out in my head.[/quote]

Octaves and fifths will work with anything... thirds, sixths and sevenths you'll need to know whether they're major or minor (or be ready move 'em up or down a semitone really quickly and look like you meant it to sound that way!)

Chromatics are great for leading to the next chord, you can go up to the root, or sometimes down to the root for some variety. You can play some really bum notes as long as you don't put them on the 1, 2, 3 or 4 too often.... on the upbeats (and of 1, and of 2, etc) you can get away with all sorts.

I also like to try finding common notes that work over a whole section of the song and see if I can come with something based loosely around them. Sometimes that will lead you to playing something that isn't based around the root of the chord although the guitarist might think you're changing his song too much.

Ultimately, if it sounds good you can do what you want. I sometimes play along with recordings and experiment by playing all the notes I would have thought were wrong... they usually are wrong but sometimes I hear something that sends me in a different direction.

Playing only chord tones (third, fifth, seventh) will sound dull pretty quickly, the best riffs and basslines have some notes that are "wrong" to add some tension and release.

Hope that makes some sense!

Edited April 11, 2011 by Fat Rich

[SteveK]

GustOo,
Bass players have made a great living (and contributed to the bands success) by pretty much just playing 8s.
On the other hand, others have made a living out of faffing about all over the song.
Adam Clayton and John Entwistle are two extremes that spring to mind.

A question to you:
When your Job Centre guitarist plays his riff or chords, what would you [b]like[/b] to hear from the bass? What in your head can you imagine that would sound really cool?

For now try recording the riffs etc, take them home, play back, shut your eyes and get a feel for the song (or how you would like it to feel). Hum something that you think would sound good and then try and learn what you've hummed. After a while you'll probably find this process becomes a lot quicker.
There's no law that says that you have to come up with a bass line immediately at rehearsals, you're not a session musician where the clock's ticking. Allegedly Paul McCartney would often go home after a day in the studio and work on his parts at home.

Edited April 11, 2011 by SteveK

[Pete Academy]

Might be worth getting a lesson or two from someone who knows how to work out bass parts from the guitar chords. This will then hopefully give you the confidence to work out your own stuff.

Just a thought.

[xgsjx]

I was going to say go for an octaver & some fuzz, but Dan beat me to it.
If you want to hear an average bassist filling the gaps in a trio, then listen to some of Van Halen's first couple of albums (preferably tracks without overdubs ).

[WalMan]

When my lot have run as a three piece, which we did for quite some time, I tended towards the occasional bit of chorus and being slightly busier, throwing in the odd chord and generally playing around with the beat and harmony (not sticking to I / V all the time) while still basically trying to keep solid with the kit and play for the song not me.

We had to do a gig recently as a three piece when one guitarist could not make it (with a very valid reason) and it was nice to have that extra bit of space. That said as we are doing some Lizzy stuff with twin leads there is still the room for me to make a bit of busy noise

[phil.i.stein]

some good ideas there ^.

also can i suggest you invest in a digital recorder, like the zoom h2 (no, i'm not selling mine.. ) ?

record your jams/practises. listen back later, preferably after a few pints or some other mind-altering substances, in order to gain a fresh 'punters' perspective.

you may well hear what it is that you are striving to achieve...(works for me, anyway..) sometimes being 'in the moment' stops you from hearing things objectively.

i hope that makes sense..

[Wolverinebass]

I've never found guitarists who mainly only play chords worth dealing with. In a trio format, space has to be given and taken in equal parts by all the members. Sometimes I'd go bonkers, sometimes the rest of the band. To fill all the space all the time is futile and in many ways fatiguing on the audience. It just doesn't work in practice and in a way becomes a kind of onslaught that just isn't that good.

In regards to your question. Try playing to the vocal (if there is one) and ignore everything else. That's more often than not how I learn a song or solidify the part I'm working on. Quite often I just completely ignore the drum patterns for a while and then come back to them for some push and pull. Or I might focus on the guitar if it's quite complex. Just an example. By comparing what you're doing with the pattern/melody of each, you'll get something that more often that not will be pretty decent. Leaning more toward one will probably give you some reasonably differing results as well.

Everyone's different though and I'm sure that you'll find something that works for you.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Dave Vader' post='1195870' date='Apr 11 2011, 04:01 PM']Sounds like you're thinking the right way, can be worth recording the guitar riffs onto something so you can work out what goes well underneath them when nobody else is listening. Allows you to make horrible mistakes on the way to the right thing.
Check out Geezer Butler on early Sabbath records, he pretty much solos underneath Iommis solos, but all with enough rhythmic intent that it doesn's sound w***y and ridiculous. 8th note roots have a place, do not underestimate them either. Try everything you can throw at it while you're rehearsing, and you should find something that works, and is neither dull not too showy off.
Oh, and when he goes for that lead solo and it sounds a bit thin, hit that thing harder and louder to fill the hole, maybe even go for the lemmy approach and wang in a load of chords. [/quote]


+1

buy a recorder if you don't have one. A Zoom H2 is cheap and a fantastic tool.
When I've been presented with originals, I may jam along etc the firts coupkle of time,s but I record it (with me silent usually), so I can go home and play along and see what I can come up with. Nothing wrong with root notes per se, they have their place... but if that's all yo do, yeah, it can become boring and there's more to bass than that. But some songs just call for a simple approach, so don't be afraid of playing simple: play for the song, not to show your chops (although sometimes it's fun to add a cool lick too ;-)

The bass can cover a lot in a three piece. If you are playing rock style, some FX may be useful. A small amount of overdrive or some ofther effect, perhaps. That will help you fill up the sound.

I would try to listen to rock bands with one guitarist, and see how they're managing to sound full. Black Sabbath is a great suggestion. As is Rush. And sooo many others!

[andy67]

I have the same sort of problem in my band. However, the drummer fills loads of gaps because he is in Bonham mode all the time! One thing I did do, when I realised root, fifth and octave were becoming tedious, I got the guitarist to note down every chord he played in the songs. Majors, minors, augments and sevenths and what every weird and wonderful out of tune nonsense he played too! It helped because I could start working the scales to fit. The lines are better now but letting the song breathe is equally important to me so, more tasteful grooving than busy and filling. Listen to Free and Bad Company, some astonishing bass playing yet simple and effective within the songs.

andy

Edited April 11, 2011 by andy67

[skankdelvar]

IMO, there's nothing wrong with your approach to the bass here. You're experiencing difficulties because of a clash between your band's ambitions and the resources to hand.

If you're going after a Black Spiders-type sound, it's worth remembering they have 3 guitarists. Their sort of sound is difficult to pull off with only one guitarist. AFAICS the bass's role in that band is to unison pretty much everything and throw in some embellishing fills when the guitars aren't going at it.

And - shock, horror any number of three-pieces have had an offstage invisible gtr or keys. The three piece approach isn't always easy.

So it depends what you want to do. Three alternatives:

* Get a second guitarist to fill out the sound and pad under the solos.

* Re-work the band sound to accomodate the line-up and direction- more fuzz, different arrangements, unison sections instead of solos etc

* Keep jamming around some ideas until one approach sounds right then write material around that sound. Band chemistry is the thing that'll make you sound different.

Some of the greatest bands ever are gtr / bs / drums. The Police, Hendrix, Zep, The Jam, Muse, Sabbath, Rush. But they all approached things in a different way and their bass parts / style / function reflects this. Keep experimenting.

Edited April 12, 2011 by skankdelvar

[Gust0o]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1196438' date='Apr 12 2011, 02:01 AM']IMO, there's nothing wrong with your approach to the bass here. You're experiencing difficulties because of a clash between your band's ambitions and the resources to hand.

If you're going after a Black Spiders-type sound, it's worth remembering they have 3 guitarists. Their sort of sound is difficult to pull off with only one guitarist. AFAICS the bass's role in that band is to unison pretty much everything and throw in some embellishing fills when the guitars aren't going at it.[/quote]

We did head out, as a band, to see them play in York the other month - where I was at pains to point out, despite the best efforts of Red Stripe, that they had a lot more people on stage than we would muster. It allows them a lot more flexibility - I mean, their individual parts are relatively straightforward, but the whole is greater than any single part.

There's a lot of good advice in this thread. I think I need to go away and digest some of it.

I think there are some quick wins, however - it's good to hear people walk away from sessions to have a think about their lines, so I won't just stick with the first thing I produce; I'll see if I can pin down anything else the guitarist is playing and see what I can thread around it.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Gust0o

[merello]

If he goes up...you go down....etc!

[karlfer]

Purely personal, but when playing original material I find that I start off with a simple bass part then it evolves as I get to know the piece. I often ended up doing a contra melody/harmony kinda thing.
When one of the original bands was a three piece, I waffled all over in verse and chorus, but usually kept it very straight/rythmic/driving for solo's.
Original band, nobody knows the script and you are the bass dood .
Enjoy your own creativity.

Edited April 12, 2011 by karlfer