E sharp Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 My word , there's a lot of folk reading this . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooks79 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Exactly, 52 members reading this thread as I type, and I bet none of them Want to be in the position Alex has been put in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon1964 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Chris2112' post='1197387' date='Apr 12 2011, 09:48 PM']As I said, I've tried looking at both sides of the argument. My legal view is that the buck must stop somewhere, for better or worse. Some onus must be placed on the customer to know what they are buying, if they lack sufficient knowledge then they may take instructon from the seller. And if the seller has done everything in their power to present the item sold in an accurate light, can blame be apportioned to them? Legally, it seems not. As I said, the buck most stop somewhere. OTOH, if I were in Alex's position I'd be angry and probably in quiet talks with the vendor looking for some resolution.[/quote] I've kept out of this one so far, but I disagree with you on the legal position. The Sale of Goods Act makes it clear that there is an implied term in every sale that the goods comply with their description. If the bass is described as an '83 Precision but it's not, that implied term is breached. Alex is therefore entitled to return the goods and a refund. The only exception is if he has kept the goods for long enough to have been deemed to have accepted them - in that case he is entitled to a refund of the difference in value. That's the legal basis of the trading standards post which Machines made above. It matters not that Mark thought it was an "83 Precision. If the description is inaccurate the implied term is breached (irrespective of knowledge). Edited April 12, 2011 by simon1964 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor J Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 The bass in question is in Eastern Europe now, I believe. It's not quite so straightforward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munkonthehill Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 [quote name='Chris2112' post='1197387' date='Apr 12 2011, 09:48 PM']Some onus must be placed on the customer to know what they are buying, if they lack sufficient knowledge then they may take instructon from the seller.[/quote] what a ridiculous thing to say. If I go into a shop I expect the seller to know what they have and what they are selling. Its up to them to deliver the goods as described. When I bought my wifes engagement ring,,,was the onus on me to pick the diamond rather than the lump of glass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 From the Citizens' Advice website [url="http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_world/consumer_affairs/buying_goods_your_rights.htm#your_legal_rights_when_you_buy_goods"]http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_w...n_you_buy_goods[/url] Worth looking at in its entirety, but below are a few sections I've picked out that seem relevant. When you buy goods the law gives you certain rights as a consumer. The law says that the goods must match their description. This means that if there is a verbal or written description of the goods, it must be accurate. There are a number of things a trader is not allowed to do when they sell you goods. These include making a false description about goods. You will not have a right to a refund if a) you examined the goods when you were buying them, and the fault you want to complain about was so obvious that you should have noticed it or the trader pointed out the defect that you now want to complain about If the goods you bought from a trader are second-hand or seconds, you still have all the same rights as if the goods were new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Wooks79' post='1197401' date='Apr 12 2011, 09:56 PM']Exactly, 52 members reading this thread as I type...[/quote] While this thread is still getting a huge audience, can I mention my mint vintage sunburst '62 P is up for sale. A beauty or what? Edited April 12, 2011 by skankdelvar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='munkonthehill' post='1197407' date='Apr 12 2011, 09:59 PM']If I go into a shop I expect the seller to know what they have and what they are selling.[/quote] Ever been to PC World? -- light-hearted interlude -- [quote name='skankdelvar' post='1197411' date='Apr 12 2011, 10:00 PM']While this thread is still getting a huge audience, can I mention my mint vintage sunburst '62 P is up for sale. A beauty or what? [/quote] Nice Gibson! Edited April 12, 2011 by EBS_freak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 [quote name='voxpop' post='1197398' date='Apr 12 2011, 09:54 PM']+1 on this. It is not just Marks fault, as buyers we have the responsibility to check and recheck all claims on vintage / old basses. On the other hand I have a great amount of sympathy for all concerned, and hope something can resolved quickly and amicably.[/quote] Most vintage dealers list many many pics of every nook and cranny. I have the professional pics of my 82' Ray from the dealer after all they are building a reputation that we will pass on amongst us, Hopefully the dealer I used and the pics will add weight and provenance to any later sale rather than question it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munkonthehill Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 [quote name='simon1964' post='1197402' date='Apr 12 2011, 09:56 PM']I've kept out of this one so far, but I'm not sure you're right on the legal position. The Sale of Goods Act makes it clear that there is an implied term in every sale that the goods comply with their description. If the bass is described as an '83 Precision but it's not, that implied term is breached. Alex is therefore entitled to return the goods and a refund. The only exception is if he has kept the goods for long enough to have been deemed to have accepted them - in that case he is entitled to a refund of the difference in value. That's the legal basis of the trading standards post which Machines made above. It matters not that Mark thought it was an "83 Precision. If the description is inaccurate the implied term is breached (irrespective of knowledge).[/quote] +1 well said Simon. My wife is a manager in a retail shop and I have been informed that there is no exact time either for you to return goods in these instances. It just says 'a reasonable time' within the act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='voxpop' post='1197398' date='Apr 12 2011, 09:54 PM']It is not just Marks fault, as buyers we have the responsibility to check and recheck all claims on vintage / old basses.[/quote] Personally I think that's the shop's job. If they advertise something as a certain model, and price it accordingly, they have the responsibility to ensure that it is what they say, if not by law, then certainly to retain professional credibility. OK, we as buyers should also check what we buy, but many potential buyers are not sufficiently competent to do so, and IME most shops will not respond well to requests to take the bass apart anyway. Furthermore, many retailers provide no evidence other than "trust us, if we say it is, it is, we're experts". I won't mention names, but when I pushed a certain well-known vintage retailer to take the necks off two '64 Precisions, neither was a '64 (and no, it wasn't V&R, they were actually very cooperative and accurate in this respect). Unless there's more to this than meets the eye, which I don't think there is, I think Mark should make good, even if the law says he doesn't have to. Chris Edited April 12, 2011 by Beedster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 [quote name='EBS_freak' post='1197412' date='Apr 12 2011, 10:00 PM']Nice Gibson![/quote] Note the slimline singlecoil. It's a P45. Like a P90, but only half the output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E sharp Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 [quote name='skankdelvar' post='1197411' date='Apr 12 2011, 10:00 PM']While this thread is still getting a huge audience, can I mention my mint vintage sunburst '62 P is up for sale. A beauty or what? [/quote] I need to see the neck pocket first , or I'm just taking your word for it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyf Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 [quote name='skankdelvar' post='1197411' date='Apr 12 2011, 10:00 PM']While this thread is still getting a huge audience, can I mention my mint vintage sunburst '62 P is up for sale. A beauty or what? [/quote] If it had 7 more strings, I'd have it like a shot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon1964 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 [quote name='munkonthehill' post='1197414' date='Apr 12 2011, 10:03 PM']+1 well said Simon. My wife is a manager in a retail shop and I have been informed that there is no exact time either for you to return goods in these instances. It just says 'a reasonable time' within the act.[/quote] Yes - and what is deemed reasonable will vary according to the facts of the case, but if Alex has gone back and asked for a refund as soon as he realised something was wrong, then that's what he is entitled to. As I say, it matters not that Mark didn't know. Legally, if the seller applies a description to the goods, he is liable if that description is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 [quote name='Beedster' post='1197416' date='Apr 12 2011, 10:03 PM']Furthermore, many retailers provide no evidence other than "trust us, if we say it is, it is, we're experts". I won't mention names, but when I pushed a certain well-known vintage retailer to take the necks off two '64 Precisions, neither was a '64 (and no, it wasn't V&R, they were actually very cooperative and accurate in this respect).[/quote] ...which further goes to show that maybe it's time that whoever is assessing vintage Fenders for Bassdirect should probably be replaced by someone who actually knows what they're doing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon1964 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 [quote name='Beedster' post='1197416' date='Apr 12 2011, 10:03 PM']I won't mention names, but when I pushed a certain well-known vintage retailer to take the necks off two '64 Precisions, neither was a '64 (and no, it wasn't V&R, they were actually very cooperative and accurate in this respect). . Chris[/quote] Funny you should say that, Chris. I had a similar experience with a '64 turning out to be a '65 when the seller took the neck off. They didn't happen to be based on New King's Road, did they?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='munkonthehill' post='1197407' date='Apr 12 2011, 09:59 PM']what a ridiculous thing to say. If I go into a shop I expect the seller to know what they have and what they are selling. Its up to them to deliver the goods as described. When I bought my wifes engagement ring,,,was the onus on me to pick the diamond rather than the lump of glass?[/quote] + 1 I personally know nothing about cars. If I want to buy a car, I go to a dealer where I am protected by UK LAW against misleading/false advertising, so that I am not taken advantage of. Simple as that. That (lack of customer knowledge) might not be the case with this bass, but it is the customer's prerogative to buy ANYTHING and receive this protection. It's obvious that some people feel more comfortable buying from a dealer who is required by law to advertise truthfully so that the customer can make a purchase based on the accurate information provided by an expert in that area. If they fail to provide accurate, truthful and the complete range of information (or fail to provide relevant information due to negligence or lack of expertise) it is therefore the dealer incorrect description that has resulted in the sale of an incorrectly advertised product and they should therefore be responsible for it. Edited April 12, 2011 by skej21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigthumb Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I'd like to think that I'm a good customer of Marks what with buying basses, amps, cabs and various other bits and bobs. On every occasion I've been more than happy with the service I have received. Under no circumstance would I believe that mark would have sold a bass knowing that there was such an issue with it. I don't doubt the claims made by Alex as I'm no expert on '80s Precisions (I've had quite a few '70s). I did view the bass quickly and it seemed ok to me. But like I said I'm no expert. I really hope that the issue is quickly resolved for Alex with the minimal damage to Bassdirect's, and Marks great reputation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Shop needs to take the bass back and refund, no idea why anyone would say otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Honest mistake. Many a slip. Smoke without fire. More in sorrow than in anger. Disproportionate response. Dead men tell no tales. At the end of the day. Let sleeping dogs lie. If you get my meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor J Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) But where does the liability stop? Did the guy who brought it in to bassdirect know? He sold it as an 83. Did whoever he bought it off sell it as an 83? Truckstop traded it abroad as an 83, there's a chain of people involved in this. Mark didn't magic this bass out of thin air, it was sold to him as an 83 too by a trusted customer. Maybe, as a retailer, he should've done more to check the total authenticity but he has been misled, intentionally or otherwise, too. Personally, if I were buying something where there is a premium paid on the basis of age, I would do a little homework first and a thorough inspection before paying money purely for the age of an item. This is a crap situation for all concerned but I don't think this is entirely the shop's fault. Edited April 12, 2011 by Doctor J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 [quote name='skankdelvar' post='1197449' date='Apr 12 2011, 10:15 PM']Honest mistake. Many a slip. Smoke without fire. More in sorrow than in anger. Disproportionate response. Dead men tell no tales. At the end of the day. Let sleeping dogs lie. If you get my meaning.[/quote] I'll have whatever he's smoking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 [quote name='Doctor J' post='1197450' date='Apr 12 2011, 10:15 PM']But where does the liability stop?[/quote] Why confuse the issue? We're only concerned with this one particular sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor J Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 [quote name='stevie' post='1197456' date='Apr 12 2011, 10:18 PM']Why confuse the issue? We're only concerned with this one particular sale.[/quote] Because I'd say it's relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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