Guitarists who don't know what they are playing

[Thurbs]

Hi all. Just joined a originals folk band with the intention of getting gig experience with the DB as well as creating my own bass lines around existing songs. It has been really fun so far and quite challenging.

I usually learn songs by ear and if I am not quite sure then a quick check/confirmation with a tab confirms a chord/note/run. Also most songs are usually written in a key which can give you a clue as to the likely chord structure you are playing over. I then get busy, create a lead sheet and then play the song using the notes mostly. However with this folk band it has not been so easy!

The main issue being that there is nothing but words written down and the guitarist has no idea what he is playing. I really mean, no idea what chord, note or key. This also means there is none of the usual structural clues around what is being played (no relying on minor 2nd etc) to rely on. It all has to be done by ear... He is quite happy to show me his fingers on the fret board so I guess I should probably try and learn some chord shapes as well!

This is obviously practice, training and experience which is all good (I am meaning to moan if it comes across that way), however I am quite surprised. Is this normal? Is a guitarist who knows what they are playing a rare thing? As a side note, in the covers rock band I am in if there is a more complicated chord (Cadd9), they just ignore it and play a "POWER" chord or somthing... Again, is this to be expected?

Not trying to put a downer on guitarists or anything, I just don't know how I could play the instrument if I didn't understand what I was playing and how it all fit together. It is different copying a cover, but originals I had somehow expected it to be different.

[charic]

Fairly common with guitarist ime

[Doctor J]

Count yourself lucky, I was once in a band with a guitarist who didn't know [i]that[/i] he was playing, so every second of every rehearsal was filled with random noodling and he'd respond with a confused "huh?" every time you'd lose patience and shout at him to shut the f*ck up.

[Wil]

I'd say it's the norm for originals bands. Good ears help a lot.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Wil

[Bilbo]

No, its not normal. I wouldn't waste my time with them. Others may feel differently (and are entitled to do so) but I would not want to spend time solving the kinds of problems that these people create in their ignorance. Life's too short.

[Wil]

As much as Bilbo will claim otherwise, in 10 years of playing in various originals bands I've not met a single reader of music.

[chris_b]

That's my experience of the folk club scene. The players I know have very good ears and don't seem to bother about technicalities, like what chord are we playing!

ps Most of them are not playing chords anyway. They usually have rhythm, bass patterns and lead lines going on at the same time.

Edited April 15, 2011 by chris_b

[Shawman]

[quote name='Doctor J' post='1200494' date='Apr 15 2011, 11:44 AM']Count yourself lucky, I was once in a band with a guitarist who didn't know [i]that[/i] he was playing, so every second of every rehearsal was filled with random noodling and he'd respond with a confused "huh?" every time you'd lose patience and shout at him to shut the f*ck up.[/quote]

i just felt my blood pressure jump a bit as this reminded me of my last guitarist

rage

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Wil' post='1200499' date='Apr 15 2011, 11:47 AM']As much as Bilbo will claim otherwise, in 10 years of playing in various originals bands I've not met a single reader of music.[/quote]

That's not what I meant (although readers do save a LOT of time - did a session yesterday and, in 6 hours, we recorded 5 arrangments of tunes I didn't know*)). Not even knowing what chords you are playing is a rare inadequacy nowadays and one I won't indulge.

* that included setting up time and a lunch break

[chris_b]

Somebody hide Bilbo's soap box!

[skankdelvar]

Most guitarists of my acquaintance are familiar with the notes on the board and know what chords they are playing. I am, however, disturbed by the OP's report that his bandmates substitute C5 for C9. The latter is a fine, plangent item popular among the discriminating. C5 is - by contrast - a Pot-Noodle chord.

Edited April 15, 2011 by skankdelvar

[markstuk]

Surely there's a difference between reading and not knowing what notes you're playing?

[quote name='Wil' post='1200499' date='Apr 15 2011, 11:47 AM']As much as Bilbo will claim otherwise, in 10 years of playing in various originals bands I've not met a single reader of music.[/quote]

[Wil]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1200503' date='Apr 15 2011, 11:50 AM']That's not what I meant (although readers do save a LOT of time - did a session yesterday and, in 4 hours, we recorded 5 arrangments of tunes I didn't know)). Not even knowing what chords you are playing is a rare inadequacy nowadays and one I won't indulge.[/quote]

Ah, sorry, I misunderstood.

That's a bit rarer I must admit.

[skej21]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1200503' date='Apr 15 2011, 11:50 AM']Not even knowing what chords you are playing is a rare inadequacy nowadays and one I won't indulge.[/quote]

+ 1000000000 Bilbo

Also, in response to the OP... Since when was Cadd9 a complicated chord?! C E G and D? Hardly difficult. If the guitarists you play with have to revert to the power chord for something as simple as that, i'd imagine it would restrict the band quite considerably.

[Fat Rich]

I've been learning guitar this past 2 weeks, one of the fun things you can do is take a basic chord shape like an E or an A (holding down 3 strings, 2 or 3 open strings), and shift it up the neck a couple of frets.... you end up with some really interesting chords as the open strings stay the same but the fretted notes change.

Sounds great but I've no idea what chord I'm playing (yet!). I think a lot of guitarists are pattern players and only know the root note, but it seems some don't even know that.

[Dood]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1200507' date='Apr 15 2011, 11:53 AM']...... The latter is a fine, plangent item popular among the discriminating. C5 is - by contrast - a Pot-Noodle chord.[/quote]

I'm clicking the imaginary BassChat 'like' button now! 'Pot-Noodle Chord' has just entered my vocabulary!

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1200497' date='Apr 15 2011, 11:45 AM']I would not want to spend time solving the kinds of problems that these people create in their ignorance. Life's too short.[/quote]
...another view:

If I was confronted with a guitarist like this, it wouldn't really bother me. I'd just work out what chords he's playing and crack on.

Life's too short.

[quote]It all has to be done by ear.[/quote]

Welcome to folk music.

[Doddy]

Let's be honest about this,it's not just guitarists that suffer from ignorance. There are tons of bass player and drummers and others who are in the same position.
I don't get it......if you are in any way serious about music,why would you choose to avoid an important part of it's communication. Yet,strangely,many do.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1200497' date='Apr 15 2011, 11:45 AM']I wouldn't waste my time with them.[/quote]
Here we see the cultural discongruity between folk and jazz. It is a point of honour among our badger-chewing cousins that one join with the audience in untutored, unselfconcious conviviality. Technique counts for nothing.

For the Bongo Bashers, of course, precisely the reverse applies.

[skej21]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1200519' date='Apr 15 2011, 12:05 PM']...another view:

If I was confronted with a guitarist like this, it wouldn't really bother me. I'd just work out what chords he's playing and crack on.

Life's too short.[/quote]

...another view

Life's too short to spend half of every rehearsal working out what the guitarist is doing AND rehearsing the music

Edited April 15, 2011 by skej21

[Wil]

[quote name='skej21' post='1200523' date='Apr 15 2011, 12:07 PM']...another view

Life's too short to spend half of every rehearsal working out what the guitarist is doing AND rehearsing the music (particularly if you're being paid for it, because you're doing twice the work you should be!)[/quote]

It really depends on how the songs are written in the first place. We'll tend to start with an idea someone has brought to the table, who will play it to the group, and we'll finish the song by jamming it out and making changes as ideas come to us - the jamming is part of why we play in the first place, it's fun!

[WILD FROG SHOT]

[quote name='Fat Rich' post='1200514' date='Apr 15 2011, 12:00 PM']I think a lot of guitarists are pattern players and only know the root note, but it seems some don't even know that. [/quote]

This is our lead guitarist. He would be able to tell you the root note of the chord he's playing (after a bit of a think), but that's the limit of his theoretical communication.

That said, he has successfully written great guitar parts by ear for all of the songs we have written over the past six years. Doesn't slow things down at all; I wouldn't change him.

Edited April 15, 2011 by WILD FROG SHOT

[ThomBassmonkey]

It depends on what style is being played. I find that guitarists tend to know their straight major, minor and a few 7th etc chords, including barres, but as soon as they're off up the neck, they cease to know what they're playing. A lot seem to look at the lowest note in their chord then assume that that's the root note and chance a guess at the rest of the chord, that kind of thing.

So long as they're competent in playing what they're playing and you're not on a tight schedule for writing/learning, I can't see it causing a problem. It can even be a bit more freedom if you're not thinking of it in terms of root notes, you can move over it however it feels right instead of trying to follow another instrument. Of course you can do that anyway, it takes a bit more effort to ignore root notes if you have them in front of you though.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='skej21' post='1200523' date='Apr 15 2011, 12:07 PM']...another view

Life's too short to spend half of every rehearsal working out what the guitarist is doing AND rehearsing the music[/quote]
It's folk music, man. Once round the chords... sorted.

[chris_b]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1200534' date='Apr 15 2011, 12:13 PM']It's folk music, man. Once round the chords... sorted.[/quote]
+1
Exactly! If you can't work out the bass line from the sound of the chords you should be reading the charts in another form of music.