Guitarists who don't know what they are playing

[skankdelvar]

It surprises me that a forum comprised of soi-disant musicians might include some* who are unaware of the importance of the 'oral tradition' in folk music, whereby one learns by listening, observing, performing and - in time perhaps - producing one's own variations. This simply a matter of context which one must respect.

To scorn a man in moleskin trousers with respect to matters technical or notational is to invite a pitchfork up the fundament. And rightly so.

[size=1]* Naturally I exempt the OP from my calculated slight. He asked the question quite fairly[/size]

Edited April 15, 2011 by skankdelvar

[Dave Vader]

Have spent many happy hours watching guitar players left hands. Being one myself it's no great difficulty for me to sort out what they are doing, and use that to sort out what I am doing.
The Guitarist in my 80s trib happily told our new keysman that the first chord of the song we were rehearsing was a Dm.
Myself and said new keysman both looked at his left hand, and wrote down C#m at the same time, with a knowing look between the 2 of us.

[Earbrass]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1200497' date='Apr 15 2011, 11:45 AM']I wouldn't waste my time with them. Others may feel differently (and are entitled to do so) but I would not want to spend time solving the kinds of problems that these people create in their ignorance. Life's too short.[/quote]

I thought this was a bit ironic, as it's pretty much how I would feel about doing Bilbo's day job.

[endorka]

As others have pointed out, not having written notation is far more common in most forms of the music than having written notation. Written notation is prevalent in classical music, musical theatre, some jazz and brass band music. As far as I know, you don't get it much anywhere else.

This doesn't bother me at all. For simple folk tunes it is usually easy enough to pick these up as you go along. For more complex tunes, or if you want to save rehearsal time, then just get the guitarist to record what they are doing beforehand, and you can work it out by ear in advance.

Jennifer

[skej21]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1200573' date='Apr 15 2011, 12:39 PM']It surprises me that a forum comprised of soi-disant musicians might include some* who are unaware of the importance of the 'oral tradition' in folk music, whereby one learns by listening, observing, performing and - in time perhaps - producing one's own variations. This simply a matter of context which one must respect.

To scorn a man in moleskin trousers with respect to matters technical or notational is to invite a pitchfork up the fundament. And rightly so.

[size=1]* Naturally I exempt the OP from my calculated slight. He asked the question quite fairly[/size][/quote]

Firstly, I think you'll find it's an 'aural' tradition. Secondly, the most effective way to pass on music through an aural tradition is by communication, and if that means someone going *shrugs* 'dunno what i'm playing' then it's harder work than it needs to be IMO.

To be fair though, most of the folkies I've played with have quite a good understanding of what they're playing.

I was saying that the people substituting Cadd9 for a power chord are the problem.

Edited April 15, 2011 by skej21

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Earbrass' post='1200584' date='Apr 15 2011, 12:50 PM']I thought this was a bit ironic, as it's pretty much how I would feel about doing Bilbo's day job. [/quote]

Maybe that's why I feel like I do about musicians that lack basic knowledge. I use up all my patience in the day job....

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='skej21' post='1200588' date='Apr 15 2011, 12:53 PM']I was saying that the people substituting Cadd9 for a power chord are the problem.[/quote]
I've bumped into a few guitarists who always substitute a C5 whatever the required chord.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='skej21' post='1200588' date='Apr 15 2011, 12:53 PM']Firstly, I think you'll find it's an 'aural' tradition.[/quote]
You might want to check again...

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='skej21' post='1200588' date='Apr 15 2011, 12:53 PM']I think you'll find it's an 'aural' tradition.[/quote]
You are, of course, entirely correct in this respect.

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1200596' date='Apr 15 2011, 12:59 PM']You might want to check again... [/quote]
But then ...

I wouldn't want to disagree with a world-renowned autoharp wrangler.

Edited April 15, 2011 by skankdelvar

[Soliloquy]

I don't know how anyone can play without knowing what you're actually playing, I find it bizarre.

I also encounter it quite often.

I was hired by a singer songwriter to do some recording a few years ago. I arrived at the studio and was met by the guy. He'd sent me some rough tracks beforehand, and I'd worked some ideas out based on them. He gave me some sheets when we'd set up, they had the lyrics printed on them, and X's and Y's as well as a few regular chord symbols. Turned out he'd learned to play from listening to his favourite songwriters, and had just copied chords from their records. He'd never learned what they were called though, if they sounded good then that's what he used. He was actually a very good singer, and wrote some really nice songs.

I've done gigs for bands too where the guitarist didn't know what he was playing. It didn't stop them from playing and sounding good. I knew what they were playing, that's all that mattered.

[skej21]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1200596' date='Apr 15 2011, 12:59 PM']You might want to check again... [/quote]

I don't think so(?) Or at least this is how I've always been told to refer to it because you have 'aural' training/exams

"Aural tradition - Many types of music, such as traditional blues and folk music were originally preserved in the memory of performers, and the songs were handed down orally, or aurally (by ear). When the composer of music is no longer known, this music is often classified as "traditional." Different musical traditions have different attitudes towards how and where to make changes to the original source material, from quite strict, to those that demand improvisation or modification to the music. A culture's history may also be passed by ear through song."


[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music#Aural_tradition"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music#Aural_tradition[/url]

Edited April 15, 2011 by skej21

[Cat Burrito]

My drummer never knows what key he is in.



At least he doesn't rely on a capo!

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='skej21' post='1200603' date='Apr 15 2011, 01:01 PM']I don't think so.

"Aural tradition - Many types of music, such as traditional blues and folk music were originally preserved in the memory of performers, and the songs were handed down orally, or aurally (by ear). When the composer of music is no longer known, this music is often classified as "traditional." Different musical traditions have different attitudes towards how and where to make changes to the original source material, from quite strict, to those that demand improvisation or modification to the music. A culture's history may also be passed by ear through song."


[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music#Aural_tradition"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music#Aural_tradition[/url][/quote]

..and also:

"Oral tradition, oral culture and oral lore is cultural material and traditions transmitted orally from one generation to another.[1][2] The messages or testimony are verbally transmitted in speech or song and may take the form, for example, of folktales, sayings, ballads, songs, or chants."

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_tradition"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_tradition[/url]

[Gust0o]

At the heart of the Basschat community we have a dichotomy - in that the community comprises both professional players and hobbyists; with further complexity and ambiguity thrown in by the various shades of learning, natural talent, effort and mindset within both camps.

I think it's quite right that those who aspire to improve, or who perform professionally, should want to read the music and understand the theory; I'm equally of the belief that large swathes of it would be wasted on many of us.

That deals with the good/competent end of the community, mind - and I think it begs the questions of what the basic level of knowledge or ability is for playing with other people in any realistic fashion. If the guy genuinely has no idea - either in knowing the notes he's playing, or at least being able to hear them and work them out in his own fashion, then it's a hiding to nothing until he does.

[skej21]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1200607' date='Apr 15 2011, 01:04 PM']..and also:

"Oral tradition, oral culture and oral lore is cultural material and traditions transmitted orally from one generation to another.[1][2] The messages or testimony are verbally transmitted in speech or song and may take the form, for example, of folktales, sayings, ballads, songs, or chants."

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_tradition"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_tradition[/url][/quote]

It would appear we were both correct, although it appears that 'aural' tradition is possibly specific to music traditions such as 'folk' and 'blues'.

[Earbrass]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1200607' date='Apr 15 2011, 01:04 PM']..and also:

"Oral tradition, oral culture and oral lore is cultural material and traditions transmitted orally from one generation to another.[1][2] The messages or testimony are verbally transmitted in speech or song and may take the form, for example, of folktales, sayings, ballads, songs, or chants."

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_tradition"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_tradition[/url][/quote]



...so if you pass tunes on by singing, humming or whistling them it's an oral tradition as well as an aural one, whereas if you pass them on by [i]playing[/i] them, it can only really be described as 'aural' (unless you play them on a wind instrument???).

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='skej21' post='1200609' date='Apr 15 2011, 01:07 PM']It would appear we were both correct, although it appears that 'aural' tradition is possibly specific to music traditions such as 'folk' and 'blues'.[/quote]
Ah, yes... but - as it's never written down, who cares how you spell it?

[skankdelvar]

Let us agree. Oral from the POV of the singer, aural from the POV of the listener

Presumably "I dunno" counts as oral as spoken. Unless it's a lyric. Which is entirely possible.

[i]"Where hieth from thine lady fair?
I dunno, mate, I dunno
Why sing'th the lark in cold clear air
I dunno, mate, I dunno"[/i]

[Gust0o]

Can someone please make the obvious 'oral tradition' joke so we can have a good, old-fashion schoolboy snigger and get this thread back on track? Thanks.

[wateroftyne]

Let's leave it to Google. Google knows EVERYTHING.

[url="http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=%22oral+tradition%22#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=%22oral+tradition%22+%22folk+music%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=15f5a9be2d8e1d9f"]Oral?[/url] [url="http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=%22aural+tradition%22+%22folk+music%22"]Aural?[/url]

[Doddy]

[quote name='Gust0o' post='1200608' date='Apr 15 2011, 01:06 PM']I think it's quite right that those who aspire to improve, or who perform professionally, should want to read the music and understand the theory; I'm equally of the belief that large swathes of it would be wasted on many of us.

That deals with the good/competent end of the community, mind - and I think it begs the questions of what the basic level of knowledge or ability is for playing with other people in any realistic fashion. If the guy genuinely has no idea - either in knowing the notes he's playing, or at least being able to hear them and work them out in his own fashion, then it's a hiding to nothing until he does.[/quote]

I'm of the belief that large swathes of it would not be a waste to anyone-ever.

What would I call basic knowledge? Knowing the notes on the 'board, basic understanding of notation,major scales and chords etc.
I'm not talking about ears because in every form of popular music,that is a given.

[skej21]

[quote name='Gust0o' post='1200623' date='Apr 15 2011, 01:14 PM']Can someone please make the obvious 'oral tradition' joke so we can have a good, old-fashion schoolboy snigger and get this thread back on track? Thanks.[/quote]

I wish all my fridays could be spent arguing over which oral is best... *ba-dum CHHHHHH*

[skankdelvar]

Non-verbal communication between musicians, such as nods, winks, expectant eyebrow-raising is crucial when developing an extemporised performance.

This is known as the Facial Tradition.

Edited April 15, 2011 by skankdelvar

[charic]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1200519' date='Apr 15 2011, 12:05 PM']...another view:

If I was confronted with a guitarist like this, it wouldn't really bother me. I'd just work out what chords he's playing and crack on.

Life's too short.[/quote]

Nail -> Head

Exactly my point of view. I generally know my theory however I don't expect all musicians too. If I asked my guitarist what scale he was playing in I would probably get a frown as he tried to work it out.

Closely followed by me saying don't worry about it and watching whatever he's playing and working it out.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Earbrass' post='1200617' date='Apr 15 2011, 01:11 PM']...so if you pass tunes on by singing, humming or whistling them it's an oral tradition as well as an aural one, whereas if you pass them on by [i]playing[/i] them, it can only really be described as 'aural' (unless you play them on a wind instrument???).[/quote]
A certain Mr Hendrix begs to differ:



Aaaaaaaaaaaaanyway...

I've been playing recently with a guitarist who not only generally doesn't know what notes/chords she's playing, but also uses loads of non-standard tunings, multiple capos and complex voicings (so no chance of hand-watching to catch the chords). Doesn't stop her being a cracking songwriter though. It's quite a workout for my ear. Much as it irks me at times, it just wouldn't be the same if she brought along a chord sheet every time she wrote a new song.

Going back to the original issue, if someone's going to try to play along to chord sheets, it behoves them to learn enough chords to get through the songs. Turning a Cadd9 into a C5 is just... no. No, no, no.