Guitarists who don't know what they are playing

[kerley]

Interesting responses that point to not really being interested in the instrument they play or extending what can be played. The fact that the responses come from people are on a bass forum would suggest to me they are interested. Maybe just more interested than doing their day job...

[Doddy]

[quote name='Gust0o' post='1205759' date='Apr 20 2011, 01:03 PM']Oh, lots of reasons:

- Because I'm not interested
- Because I don't need it for what I'm doing
- I only in my bedroom or on Youtube
- I am doing it, I just don't intend to be fluent
- I'm not into Jazz and don't own any knitwear
- Because I'm not a pro
- Because I'm on a salary and this is just a hobby to me[/quote]

So-you're not interested, but you are doing it?
That's great. There must be some interest there to actually do it.

As far as not intending to be fluent-you don't need to be,and that's why I always advocate at least a [i]basic[/i] understanding. Even a little is better than nothing.
As you do it more though,you will find that you will naturally become more fluent anyway. It will help if you ever choose to take it outside your room too.

[tauzero]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1205691' date='Apr 20 2011, 12:15 PM']Doesn't make it right though.
Try giving tab to someone who doesn't play a fretted string instrument
Notation is universal.[/quote]
Notation is effectively tab for saxophones. It tells them which bits to press, it doesn't tell them what the note will be at the other end of the process.

[Doddy]

[quote name='tauzero' post='1205783' date='Apr 20 2011, 01:19 PM']Notation is effectively tab for saxophones. It tells them which bits to press, it doesn't tell them what the note will be at the other end of the process.[/quote]

It also tells a piano player what bit to press,or a bass player which bit to hold down-as well as for how long and how hard.
Just because the Sax is a transposing instrument doesn't mean it doesn't tell them what the note is.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1205637' date='Apr 20 2011, 11:19 AM']What about the access to the music you are interested in?[/quote]
The only way I would come across notation for most of the music I'm interested in would be if I wrote it out myself.

I have a feeling that would be true for a lot of other people on here too.

[Doddy]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1205806' date='Apr 20 2011, 01:33 PM']The only way I would come across notation for most of the music I'm interested in would be if I wrote it out myself.

I have a feeling that would be true for a lot of other people on here too.[/quote]

In that case,isn't it a good idea to learn a bit so that you can write it out for yourself and create your own library if music?

[SteveK]

Jist of this thread:

"I don't read, I just enjoy getting together with mates and knocking out a few tunes."

"Oh, you should learn to read music, you'll be a better musician for it."

"But I make a good living doing *enter career of choice*. I have no inclination of making a career of music. I just enjoy getting together with mates and knocking out a few tunes."

"Oh, you should learn to read music, you'll be a better musician for it."

"But I'm not into jazz, I have no intention of doing sessions, I just enjoy getting together with mates and knocking out a few tunes.

"Oh, you should learn to read music, you'll be a better musician for it."

"But I don't have the time, I just enjoy what I'm doing."

"Stuff your enjoyment -[b] learn to read[/b]... you'll be a better musician for it."

etc etc

If I was a non reader the pompous grandiosity of some posts in this thread would put me off for life.

And I'm speaking as someone who's been a pro gigging musician since 1975

Incidentally, I've done many sessions and never once got a whiff of sheet music. I've generally been left to my own devices.
However, if you intend making a living doing sessions , then learning to read is a must. Don't think that applies to many contributors to this thread though.

[phil.i.stein]

[quote name='SteveK' post='1205821' date='Apr 20 2011, 01:43 PM']Jist of this thread:

"I don't read, I just enjoy getting together with mates and knocking out a few tunes."

"Oh, you should learn to read music, you'll be a better musician for it."

"But I make a good living doing *enter career of choice*. I have no inclination of making a career of music. I just enjoy getting together with mates and knocking out a few tunes."

"Oh, you should learn to read music, you'll be a better musician for it."

"But I'm not into jazz, I have no intention of doing sessions, I just enjoy getting together with mates and knocking out a few tunes.

"Oh, you should learn to read music, you'll be a better musician for it."

"But I don't have the time, I just enjoy what I'm doing."

"Stuff your enjoyment -[b] learn to read[/b]... you'll be a better musician for it."

etc etc

If I was a non reader the pompous grandiosity of some posts in this thread would put me off for life.

And I'm speaking as someone who's been a pro gigging musician since 1975

Incidentally, I've done many sessions and never once got a whiff of sheet music. I've generally been left to my own devices.
However, if you intend making a living doing sessions , then learning to read is a must. Don't think that applies to many contributors to this thread though.[/quote]
in a nutshell.

game over.

[Doddy]

[quote name='SteveK' post='1205821' date='Apr 20 2011, 01:43 PM']"Stuff your enjoyment -[b] learn to read[/b]... you'll be a better musician for it."[/quote]

No one ever said "Stuff your enjoyment".

[Bilbo]

In fact, I think there was an element of 'hey, you could enjoy it even more'.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='Gust0o' post='1205759' date='Apr 20 2011, 01:03 PM']Oh, lots of reasons:

- Because I'm not interested
- Because I don't need it for what I'm doing
- I only in my bedroom or on Youtube
- I am doing it, I just don't intend to be fluent
- I'm not into Jazz and don't own any knitwear
- Because I'm not a pro
- Because I'm on a salary and this is just a hobby to me[/quote]

Oops... I forgot to note that I was paraphrasing a whole variety of previous comments... I'm not a Youtube player, sadly

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1205833' date='Apr 20 2011, 01:54 PM']In fact, I think there was an element of 'hey, you could enjoy it even more'.[/quote]
How's that?

[Bilbo]

Because you get to the good bits quicker. I have rehearsed 32 tunes in one evening using charts. If I had to 'learn' them by rote, I would have probably managed a maximum of 4 that I would probably forget by the time I did a gig.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1205842' date='Apr 20 2011, 02:01 PM']Because you get to the good bits quicker. I have rehearsed 32 tunes in one evening using charts. If I had to 'learn' them by rote, I would have probably managed a maximum of 4 that I would probably forget by the time I did a gig.[/quote]
That's not my idea of enjoyment. Each to their own, though!

[phil.i.stein]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1205842' date='Apr 20 2011, 02:01 PM']Because you get to the good bits quicker. I have rehearsed 32 tunes in one evening using charts. If I had to 'learn' them by rote, I would have probably managed a maximum of 4 that I would probably forget by the time I did a gig.[/quote]
purely out of interest, are you listening and interracting with what's going on around you, or just reading and repeating verbatim (i.e. like reading aloud from a book you've never read before) ?



..and can you dance whilst you're doing it ?

Edited April 20, 2011 by phil.i.stein

[Doddy]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1205842' date='Apr 20 2011, 02:01 PM']Because you get to the good bits quicker. I have rehearsed 32 tunes in one evening using charts. If I had to 'learn' them by rote, I would have probably managed a maximum of 4 that I would probably forget by the time I did a gig.[/quote]

Yep.

Plus,one of the most fun things I used to do was a regular afternoon jam session at a guys house. We used to turn up,give out new charts every week-some just chords,others fully notated-and just play for a few hours. Every week we'd invite new people down and it was great fun. It also helped to meet new players and get more gigs.

[Doddy]

[quote name='phil.i.stein' post='1205848' date='Apr 20 2011, 02:05 PM']purely out of interest, are you listening and interracting with what's going on around you, or just reading and repeating verbatim (i.e. like reading aloud from a book you've never read before) ?

[/quote]

You could say the same about if you are playing familiar tunes do you just play without listening and just play it how you've learned it?
Just because you're reading charts doesn't mean that you don't listen to what's going on around you.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='phil.i.stein' post='1205848' date='Apr 20 2011, 02:05 PM']purely out of interest, are you listening and interracting with what's going on around you, or just reading and repeating verbatim (e.g. like reading aloud from a book you've never read before) ?

[/quote]

You can't deliver a performance of written music without listening and interacting with what is going on around you. Which notes to play and when is only the starting point. You still need to lock in with the other instruments and vice versa. You still need to guage your dynamics to the ensemble (in this case , keys, gtr, bass, dr, t. sax, trombone, trumpet, alto sax, flute, violin (x2), cello all under an MD/conductor. Everything is determined by the same listening and interacting skills as they would in any other musical setting. You are listening for cues, rubato passages, directed stops, vamps that are open ended. Learning to read the dots is only a part of putting in a musical performance of a chart. When it happens well, its such a buzz. One of the tracks on that show was Queen's 'Don't Stop ME Now'. It still had to rock, it still had that great guitar solo - everything was 'as per the reocrd' but we did it after one rehearsal and tucked in between 31 other tunes.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='phil.i.stein' post='1205848' date='Apr 20 2011, 02:05 PM']..and can you dance whilst you're doing it ?[/quote]

No, but you can

[spinynorman]

I don't read, though I had guitar lessons long ago in which I failed both at learning to read and learning to play guitar. Still, I can see where reading would be useful, so long as everyone in the band can do it.

Our singer is quite a bit younger than the rest of us and tends to suggest songs we've never heard of. So we individually go off the Youtube and try to work out our individual parts, then at the next rehearsal we arrive with bits of paper that we've devised to remind us what worked when playing along with whatever version we each found. So long as at least one of us has acquired a reasonably secure grasp on the structure of the song, we usually make some progress. Sometimes we don't. Reading would help if we could easily and quickly get hold of a reliable arrangement, though I suspect that might be a flaw in the argument. The alternative - we'd need someone who can WRITE music, which I guess isn't at all the same as being able to read it.

Happy Jack's example of Down at the Doctors is interesting. So he's in a band where it sounds like everyone knows the original and respects it. I've played it too. At the time we had a keyboard player, who jumped on "8 bars on piano" as his cue for a solo. I tried to explain to the singer that there was no point him saying "8 bars on piano", as the whole point of saying it was that there was no piano. Lost that one. Then tried to explain to the pianist that his solo lasted 12 bars, which rather suggested to me we had the whole song wrong. Lost that one too.

An example of a little musical knowledge being a dangerous thing - another band but the same pianist, me on guitar, playing Bohemian Rhapsody. The pianist was playing from a book of Queen songs for piano, I was playing from some tab I found. About two thirds of the way through, I found the guitar part just wouldn't work, but not being at all confident of my ability anyway, fudged it and carried on. A year later, same song, same pianist, different guitarist, me on bass. About 2/3rds through guitarist starts to look puzzled, and being more confident, asks the pianist WTF he thinks he's playing. Turns out the Queen for piano book missed out a whole section of guitar solo.

[tauzero]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1205799' date='Apr 20 2011, 01:30 PM']It also tells a piano player what bit to press,or a bass player which bit to hold down-as well as for how long and how hard.
Just because the Sax is a transposing instrument doesn't mean it doesn't tell them what the note is.[/quote]
It doesn't tell me what the note is (well, if I was able to read music, it wouldn't IYSWIM).

[Bilbo]

[quote name='spinynorman' post='1205874' date='Apr 20 2011, 02:24 PM']Turns out the Queen for piano book missed out a whole section of guitar solo.[/quote]

It happens a lot. Like proof reading an essay. Some of the suckers still get through.

[tauzero]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1205838' date='Apr 20 2011, 01:58 PM']How's that?[/quote]
Not out.

[essexbasscat]

I'm familiar with the one minute argument, the ten minute argument, but a one week argument ?

[phil.i.stein]

back at Doddy & Bilbo.

i have a huge amount of respect for anyone who can read and perform to your standards. i will learn to read one day. but it's just not necessary for me and for the music i like to play, also life is too short to do everything.

another problem is that written communication can be deeply flawed, as it is open to some interpretation (as i have learned at my peril on this very site )

also..sometimes learning to play by the rules can be restrictive to creativity. e.g. my favourite artists (both visual and musical) tend to be self-taught.

indeed, many that i know who have studied are uncreative, as they have never had to bring their creative sides to the forefront.

i guess it's a case of 'different strokes' etc.

finding a way of communicating with other musicians is always an interesting experience, but i would never, ever discount a non-reader. some of them are the most intuitive musicians around.