Gust0o Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 [quote name='essexbasscat' post='1205908' date='Apr 20 2011, 02:52 PM']I'm familiar with the one minute argument, the ten minute argument, but a one week argument ? [/quote] This is the bass playing equivalent of the 30 Years War. We've some time to run yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 [quote name='phil.i.stein' post='1205922' date='Apr 20 2011, 03:01 PM']also..sometimes learning to play by the rules can be restrictive to creativity. e.g. my favourite artists (both visual and musical) tend to be self-taught.[/quote] The only time it restricts your creativity is if you let it or if you aren't that creative to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 [quote name='Doddy' post='1205932' date='Apr 20 2011, 03:06 PM']The only time it restricts your creativity is if you let it or if you aren't that creative to begin with.[/quote] therein lies the point. you need to learn to speak before you can read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 [quote name='phil.i.stein' post='1205935' date='Apr 20 2011, 03:11 PM']therein lies the point. you need to learn to speak before you can read.[/quote] But then by reading you can gain a wider view and extend your vocabulary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 [quote name='Doddy' post='1205937' date='Apr 20 2011, 03:15 PM']But then by reading you can gain a wider view and extend your vocabulary.[/quote] agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wil Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Hell, I can sight read for cello and piano, to an extent, but not for bass or guitar. I've just never seen the need to even learn the notes on the board besides the common chord roots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I 'tabbed' Michael Schenker's 'Bijou Pleasurette' as a favour for my non-reading guitar playing brother once. I handed it to him and he looked at it and said: 'F*** me'! He never learned it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 [quote name='Johnston' post='1205940' date='Apr 20 2011, 03:17 PM']But then I know multi instrumentalist who can sight read for Violin, flute and Piano but yet for some reason give them the same sheet and a guitar they would draw a blank. Give them the same sheet in tab and they can play.[/quote] Why didn't they transfer the reading over to the guitar? They can already read,so it's not going to be that difficult to transfer the skill. [quote name='Johnston' post='1205940' date='Apr 20 2011, 03:17 PM']Why?? Why do that for himself and the [b]minority[/b] of bass players where as he could TAB it out and if he so wished to make it public the [b]majority[/b] of bass players could enjoy his work?[/quote] Why not?? Why should you not learn to do it just because the [b]majority[/b] of bass players might not enjoy it. What about doing it for the sole reason of increasing your own musical vocabulary? With you bringing up the whole minority/majority thing,why is it that most instrumentalists learn to read to a basic level,yet guitar and bass guitar players very often don't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 there is, of course, a flip-side to all of this theory argument. another thread on here, the one about electronic music. some of the best producers in this genre haven't a clue about musical theory. they just experiment. it probably wouldn't help them to learn theory either, as technology and analogue/digital 'language' is the new way of communication. traditional theory is all well and good, but is also becoming increasingly obsolete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 [quote name='Wil' post='1205942' date='Apr 20 2011, 03:20 PM']Hell, I can sight read for cello and piano, to an extent, but not for bass or guitar. I've just never seen the need to even learn the notes on the board besides the common chord roots.[/quote] Odd. If you can sight read for cello, shurely you can sight read for bass. Its the same clef. I guess you mean that, because the bass is tuned in fourths, you can't make the hands do what the eyes are telling you? Back to the OP. What I am sensing is that, whatever level of musical knowledge we have, we are occasionally frustrated by those who have less. In many situations, the required knowledge base is sufficiently limited for it to matter less (one band, one set of familiar songs etc). Personally, my pursuit of the knowledge is, in part, not because I don't want to be the bass player in the stated scenario, its because I don't want to be the guitarist. I did a gig once where the drummer was not up to par (too loud, too busy etc) and, after three or four tunes, the leader just turned to him and said 'can you not [i]sh*t[/i] all over my music, please'. I don't want to ever be that drummer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' post='1205964' date='Apr 20 2011, 03:35 PM']... I don't want to ever be that drummer.[/quote] he must've been at the wrong gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 [quote name='phil.i.stein' post='1205954' date='Apr 20 2011, 03:28 PM']it probably wouldn't help them to learn theory either,[/quote] I bet it would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 [quote name='phil.i.stein' post='1205969' date='Apr 20 2011, 03:38 PM']he must've been at the wrong gig.[/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 [quote name='Wil' post='1205942' date='Apr 20 2011, 03:20 PM']Hell, I can sight read for cello and piano, to an extent, but not for bass or guitar. I've just never seen the need to even learn the notes on the board besides the common chord roots.[/quote] Sorry, but that is a bit daft! To be any good you need to know your way around the instrument and understand a bit about the mechanics of how music works But you don't need to be able to read music...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 (edited) [quote name='phil.i.stein' post='1205954' date='Apr 20 2011, 03:28 PM']there is, of course, a flip-side to all of this theory argument. another thread on here, the one about electronic music. some of the best producers in this genre haven't a clue about musical theory. they just experiment. it probably wouldn't help them to learn theory either, as technology and analogue/digital 'language' is the new way of communication. traditional theory is all well and good, but is also becoming increasingly obsolete.[/quote] Theory is certainly not "becoming increasingly obsolete." Just because they haven't studied it doesn't mean that it is not being applied. I'm sure chord changes and the melodies used follow very clearly "traditional theory". They just don't know it. Unless, of course, we're talking about something totally avant-garde. Edited April 20, 2011 by SteveK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wil Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 (edited) [quote name='peteb' post='1205979' date='Apr 20 2011, 03:40 PM']Sorry, but that is a bit daft! To be any good you need to know your way around the instrument and understand a bit about the mechanics of how music works But you don't need to be able to read music...![/quote] That's my point, I've learned my way around guitar and bass from years of playing the things. The end aim for me is always converting the music in my head into sound, and I've never really had any trouble with that on guitar/bass without reading music or knowing where the notes are on the instrument. Relative pitch and my ears are all I need for my purposes. I learned to sight read for cello/piano so I could play the Bach cello suites/Tom Waits tunes respectively, although I found because I'd heard them before my fingers often went to the notes before I'd read them off the page... I didnt stick with it. It seemed to suck the fun out of playing, but I've always had a problem with authority. I don't want any damn sheets of paper telling me where to put my fingers Edited April 20, 2011 by Wil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 [quote name='SteveK' post='1205985' date='Apr 20 2011, 03:42 PM']Theory is certainly not "becoming increasingly obsolete." Just because they haven't studied it doesn't mean that it is not being applied. I'm sure chord changes and the melodies used follow very clearly "traditional theory". Unless, of course, we're talking about something totally avant-garde.[/quote] no, just that technology enables people to get on with things without rudimentary theory. i don't know how to make fire, but i can light the stove. ...i'm not saying that this is a good thing also, technology is creating it's own music. for example, hip-hop and d'n'b was created by virtue of the record deck (people messing around), and now 'traditional musicians' are having to emulate it and incorporate those influences. it's all a very interesting mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomEndian Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' post='1205964' date='Apr 20 2011, 03:35 PM']Odd. If you can sight read for cello, shurely you can sight read for bass. Its the same clef. I guess you mean that, because the bass is tuned in fourths, you can't make the hands do what the eyes are telling you?[/quote] That's exactly it, or at least that's what I found. I've read music since I was about 6, and I consider it my second language, in which I'm pretty fluent. Stick a sheet in front of me, and I'll be able to sing it back at you, or play it on the piano, usually bang-on first time unless it's proper fly-diarrhoea. Personally (until a couple of years ago when I sat down and really started to put the effort in on bass, reading-wise), I found it difficult to make the transition to reading music on a bass guitar because of the multiple options for selecting the same note on different strings, while trying to avoid changing position every other beat. "Do I play the C at the 3rd fret on the A or the 8th fret on the E? Well... looking ahead a couple of bars, I'll need to be down at the 1st for that F, so I guess I'll stick down low." That sort of thing took me a while to get used to (especially sight-reading at speed, needing to scan a few bars ahead at all times), having come from a fixed-position background: there's only one place to play a middle C on a piano. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Wil' post='1205999' date='Apr 20 2011, 03:47 PM']Relative pitch and my ears are all I need for my purposes.[/quote] that's the important bit, right there. Edited April 20, 2011 by phil.i.stein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 [quote name='phil.i.stein' post='1206005' date='Apr 20 2011, 03:49 PM']no, just that technology enables people to get on with things without rudimentary theory. i don't know how to make fire, but i can light the stove.[/quote] " i don't know how to make fire, but i can light the stove." Me too! I know nothing of the laws of physics, but I'm certain, when lighting the stove, the laws are being applied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 [quote name='SteveK' post='1206020' date='Apr 20 2011, 04:02 PM']" i don't know how to make fire, but i can light the stove." Me too! I know nothing of the laws of physics, but I'm certain, when lighting the stove, the laws are being applied.[/quote] ah well, the big bang theory's out of the window.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 [quote name='Johnston' post='1206003' date='Apr 20 2011, 03:48 PM']Whats wrong with sticking with the time honoured traditional 700 year old string instrument standard of Tablature. As for other instrumentalists I know a few flute players who start gigging around this time of year for one big gig in July and they can't read. But tell me this can you read any other form of notation apart from western standard or classical or whatever it's called??[/quote] Just picking up on these last three points,because I've gone over the rest enough times....... The problem with sticking to tablature is the fact that it is useless in conveying any information other than which fret to put your finger. Of course there are going to be other instrumentalists that don't read,but these are usually in the minority. What other forms of notation are you referring too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatback Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Bilbo's point about access to sophisticated music is hugely important. And 'sophisticated' I'm taking to mean too hard to be picked up by ear without a crazy amount of work and time. Years ago, i bought Ray Brown's book, full of great bass parts, but I only ever managed to work through a couple because I couldn't read. I've just gone back to them having picked up reading lately, and it's just great to be able to see what a great player does and try stuff out for myself. Then there's practicing scales. Reading scales and intervals etc is stretching me more than making them up as I go along, just because I don't keep repeating the same old tricks. BUT I do wish that people would distinguish between learning to read and learning theory. You may never in a lifetime of playing miss reading, but you'll surely miss out without some theory, and you don't need reading for that. Ever been so frustrated at your own limitations that you almost (or do) give up? I'll bet it's not because your fingers won't go fast enough. Most likely it's because you can't see how to create interesting lines, you're boring yourself to death and you don't feel you understand what's going on well enough to cope with whatever happens on the night. Theory can help fix all those problems. And you could get to condescend to guitarists. my 10c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 [quote name='phil.i.stein' post='1206023' date='Apr 20 2011, 04:04 PM']ah well, the big bang theory's out of the window.. [/quote] Maybe time to get your stove serviced Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 And a welcome 10c it is, fb. On reflection, I think my use of the term 'sophisticated' is probably erroneous. 'Complex' would probably do the job better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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