Guitarists who don't know what they are playing

[Doddy]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='1202280' date='Apr 17 2011, 12:28 AM']"Excuse"?

Hilarity at your presumptuousness (I'm being polite) aside, both of your responses are pretty much irrelevant to me - which was the point of my post. And I didn't "avoid" anything - I was a teenager with a short attention span & wanted to play in a band & get out gigging - reading would not have helped, and plainly it's been in no sense "essential".

I'm not for a moment suggesting what has been absolutely fine for me would be to anyone else, which was, again, fundamental to the point of the post.

J.[/quote]

Why are my responses irrelevant to you?

Y'know I was a teenager that wanted to play in a band and gig aswell,but I still found time to study music aswell as play what I
enjoyed. And while it may not be 'essential' to your specific interest it is an essential part of the language of music,which is what
I said earlier.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1202289' date='Apr 17 2011, 12:49 AM']Why are my responses irrelevant to you?

Y'know I was a teenager that wanted to play in a band and gig aswell,but I still found time to study music aswell as play what I
enjoyed. And while it may not be 'essential' to your specific interest it is an essential part of the language of music,which is what
I said earlier.[/quote]

I wonder if you actually read my first post? Maybe you should read it again because I think I made myself as clear as possible already & there seems little to be gained by repeating it.

I suppose you can quibble over semantics as much as you please but such bickering aside, you would appear to have an entirely entrenched & unbending viewpoint whilst I do not. I don't require to be persuaded of anything, all I was doing was attempting to relate my personal experience, the fact I have no need to be able to read notation is relevant only to my situation and is not some kind of mantra or shining example I would wish others to follow.

And the ability to read is either essential or it is not - since numerous musicians on every level appear to able to function perfectly adequately without having learned this skill it quite self-evidently is not essential. Now, any danger that we can drop the whole reading music thing? It's been done to death dozens of time before, isn't what this thread was supposed to be about, and is certainly not why I responded in the first place.

J.

[el borracho]

Maybe not the original point of the thread but Doddy - you have actually had an effect on me here! I started reading your responses thinking I can play perfectly well without reading. But - last night - I was gigging and we were well out of practice (not my fault - I'm available) and kept thinking that if I knew WHAT I was doing rather than trying to remember shapes it would be so much easier. I play entire bass patterns without having any awareness of a single note in them. I could tell you every note but I play by shape memory.
Your comment about stock licks and patterns sums me up. Time for change methinks

[Gust0o]

Amen, Bassassin. I'm glad to read the above.

[ras52]

Just catching up on this thread... so some like oral, while for others it's just the same old licks. Some advocate being more adventurous, while others thinks this would be a pain the the arse.

[scalpy]

I play in a ceilidh band, much like the OP anecdote, and we have a collective approach to the line-up, you never know who's going to be the guitarist for the gig. Some guys bash out the chords on the chart, one guy in particular plays whatever he hears in his head bearing no resemblance to the paper, and the joy of it is making it all work.

My brother is a guitarist/ songwriter and doesn't know a dot of theory or any chord names at all. He composes by make a shape with his fingers and bashing them onto the strings until he likes the sound of it. My job when we played to together was drag these chords back to something close to a this is the root note everybody type situation. I did this by ear, despite the fact I have a degree in music. It would have been possible to sit down and go this is a G11 over a D pedal but that wouldn't be very rock'n'roll would it?

Surely the point of making music is the net result? Some people need a map to take them where they need to go, some people like getting lost and discovering somewhere they didn't know existed. You just need to make sure the people you are traveling with are enjoying the journey as much as you are. Cheesy point over!

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='ras52' post='1203172' date='Apr 18 2011, 07:57 AM']Just catching up on this thread... so some like oral, while for others it's just the same old licks. Some advocate being more adventurous, while others thinks this would be a pain the the arse.[/quote]



Having been rather preoccupied over the last week or two I have only just read this topic.

My tupp'orth on the whole tired & weary [b][size=3][color="#FF0000"]YOU MUST LEARN TO READ - FOR YOU, ZE WAR ISS OVER[/color] [/size][/b]thing is that there are (some) pro-readers here who do themselves no favours and who are IMHO actively [b][i]counter[/i][/b]-productive in their excessive zeal.

Even if they are "right" (whatever that means), adopting an arrogant and hectoring tone and challenging the commitment of other musicians simply because they have a different viewpoint is hardly likely to gain converts to their cause.

If the pro-readers really think that others would benefit from learning to read (which clearly they do, and with sincerity) it might be beneficial to offer more carrot and less stick.

Explain WHY others might benefit - if you can't read, then how are you supposed to know?

Show HOW others can learn without feeling like 11-year-olds back at school.

Give some practical examples: Here's a decent bassline to a well-known song as written by a non-reader. Now here's an alternative bassline written by someone who actually understands the chord structure being used.

OK, maybe more than my tupp'orth. Maybe a sixpence.

[JTUK]

To reply to the OP..and I have skimmed the rest of the thread, I have to say it is not normal at all or not in the circles I've played for eons.
I have come across one or two who can play entirely by ear without having a clue what the notes are called but even players who don't or prefer not to read the gig are more than conversant with chords and theory. Their ear may be the dominant factor to such an extent that they will pay lip service to the chart ..if there is one... and this is mainly gtrs. Some keys will do this though but come from a POV where there is such good musical knowledge they can simplify an arrangement because they know how to translate chords from melody and can therefore use substitutes..bla bla..

You just cannot do a variety of musical situations without being able to converse in the common language, IME, even if someone tells you the song is in the key and these are the changes to listen out for.. you need to know what they are talking about ...and be able to do it, of course, or you don't get called again.

If you set up your own band and just use shapes..and follow fingers, you are making awfully awfully hard work of it and will spend more time in reherarsal than out gigging and you limt who you can play with.

So... to be totally clueless, IMO, is a waste. Having said that, perfect pitch control is a wondrous thing but so very few have it, IME.

I don't say you have to read fly-sh*t but you have to be aware of conventional musical workings or you cut yourself out of many experiences.
That is fine if you don't see yourself getting much further than the one band or the bedroom. But working with other people needs musical communication and this is one part of it. IMO.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1203237' date='Apr 18 2011, 09:15 AM']Explain WHY others might benefit - if you can't read, then how are you supposed to know?

Show HOW others can learn without feeling like 11-year-olds back at school.

Give some practical examples: Here's a decent bassline to a well-known song as written by a non-reader. Now here's an alternative bassline written by someone who actually understands the chord structure being used.[/quote]

Why might people benefit? One of the big answers is it opens the door to more gigs. There are a lot of gigs where there isn't a chance to spend time rehearsing and learning the material,instead you turn up and read the charts. Alternatively,you may not read on a gig,but if you can give out charts in the rehearsal room it will allow everyone to play the music straight away without spending time listening and learning.
You may never do a reading gig,but it will still give you access to a world of educational material. Look in any of the magazines or books and you'll see notation. If you want to gain anything from these you need to know at least the basics of reading.
It's all about communicating ideas with other musicians.

How can you learn? Practise. There aren't any short cuts to learning. Get a book like 'Simplified Sight Reading for Bass' or the equivalent MI book and you will learn some basic reading really quickly. You may need some help as it progresses though.

As far as examples of basslines comparing readers and non readers-all I'll say is that there is a reason why players like Nathan East and Will Lee have been first call players for the last 30-odd years.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1203477' date='Apr 18 2011, 12:17 PM']It's all about communicating ideas with other musicians.[/quote]
Assuming they too can read. I've been playing in bands for 30 years - originals and covers, and I've even been invited to do the occasional dep & studio session. I have worked with numerous exceptional & inspirational players, and none of them used notation or expected it of other players. It's a reasonable assumption that most of these people were not readers.

Again, this is only my experience, I have never aspired to work as a professional session player, if I had my background and level of musical education would inevitably have been different - although I don't think my outlook on the subject would be. The requirement to read notation is entirely dependent upon an individual's musical situation & the direction of their aspiration, and this means inevitably there's a significant proportion for whom it is of no use or consequence.

J.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='1203591' date='Apr 18 2011, 01:49 PM']The requirement to read notation is entirely dependent upon an individual's musical situation & the direction of their aspiration, and this means inevitably there's a significant proportion for whom it is of no use or consequence.

J.[/quote]

Absolutely.

[Monckyman]

Burn him!
Burn the heretic!!

Well put.

[oldslapper]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1200519' date='Apr 15 2011, 12:05 PM']...another view:

If I was confronted with a guitarist like this, it wouldn't really bother me. I'd just work out what chords he's playing and crack on.

Life's too short.[/quote]

I can breathe again...thank you.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='Monckyman' post='1203595' date='Apr 18 2011, 01:57 PM']Burn him!
Burn the heretic!!

Well put.
[/quote]

[Doddy]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='1203591' date='Apr 18 2011, 01:49 PM']The requirement to read notation is entirely dependent upon an individual's musical situation & the direction of their aspiration, and this means inevitably there's a significant proportion for whom it is of no use or consequence.[/quote]

This is the part that I honestly do not understand the reasoning behind.
Just because you aspire to,or do play in a band that doesn't require the ability does not mean that it would be no use to you. I don't know one musician that has said that the ability to read has not been of any use to them,whether they need the skill for their gigs or not. Everyone that learns will benefit in someway,even if it's only to be able to play the exercises that are written in the magazines.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1203678' date='Apr 18 2011, 03:12 PM']This is the part that I honestly do not understand the reasoning behind.[/quote]

We know

[Wil]

We've had this discussion about a thousand times, I swear.

It's a question of time - I'd rather spend my free time doing other things than woodshedding. I'm perfectly happy in my ability for the music I enjoy playing. Playing bass for a lot of people, myself included, is about band practice and gigs, probably only one night a week, and maybe the occasional noodle about. I could learn to read and sit going through excercises from magazines, but honestly, I'd rather do something else.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1203678' date='Apr 18 2011, 03:12 PM']This is the part that I honestly do not understand the reasoning behind.
Just because you aspire to,or do play in a band that doesn't require the ability does not mean that it would be no use to you. I don't know one musician that has said that the ability to read has not been of any use to them,whether they need the skill for their gigs or not. Everyone that learns will benefit in someway,even if it's only to be able to play the exercises that are written in the magazines.[/quote]
I've tried to explain - even taking the perspective of someone who was, at one point, quite intent on learning the skill. Had I persisted, I don't see that the ability would have had a tangible effect on what I've done either in band situations (with people who were not readers) or during the time I've spent composing and recording music either solo or in a collaborative context. It would not have opened any otherwise missed opportunities to me, because I have never sought to work in a context where it would be necessary.

I suppose there may be ways in which it might have been beneficial, although since I do not know what they are, therefore I do not miss them. I'll reiterate - it is entirely dependent on the individual player's circumstances and what they aim to achieve.

This conversation is reminding me more & more of trying to explain to my daughter, when she was three or four, that everything in life is not black & white: "It's not right or wrong - just different".

OK?

J.

[SteveK]

Doddy, with respect, you're starting to come across like one of those stuffy old piano teacher ma'ams I vaguely remember hearing about in my childhood, reciting the same old mantra at every opportunity, [i]"study - scales - notation"[/i].
If someone asks, "I'm at this stage, how can I improve?" Then I think it's reasonable to suggest learning to read.
I do think, however, that you have to accept that for some, that have no intention of following a career in music, being told that they should learn to read can be a big turnoff.
May be there just aren't enough hours in the day for work, family, learning songs for their fun band and a bit of practice as it is.

It's obviously good advice for those that want to be serious about music, but there are many that only intend it to be a bit of fun with their mates, maybe with an occasional gig thrown in.

[Doddy]

[quote name='SteveK' post='1203728' date='Apr 18 2011, 03:53 PM']It's obviously good advice for those that want to be serious about music, but there are many that only intend it to be a bit of fun with their mates, maybe with an occasional gig thrown in.[/quote]

I understand that,and have got no problems with it. My argument is a basically against the whole 'it wouldn't/won't benefit me' thing. I honestly believe that any musician would benefit from it in some way,no matter what their level or asperations are,even if it's only a basic understanding.

[Ross]

I've had it before, really didn't hinder me at all. Now I'm pretty well educated in music theory I rarely use it when I'm writing a line, always just played by instinct.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1203750' date='Apr 18 2011, 04:12 PM']My argument is a basically against the whole 'it wouldn't/won't benefit me' thing.[/quote]
I mean, you're [i]absolutely right[/i]. Learning to read is very useful. But some people just don't want to do it. Best to let it go. They'll come around if and when they need to.

It's easy to get excited and push a bit too hard. And you don't want to do it like that. No, I wouldn't be doing it like that...

[Happy Jack]

I play bass in a 70s covers band. I could choose lots of different tracks to illustrate where I'm going here, but let's go with [i]Down At The Doctors[/i] by Dr. Feelgood.

I don't believe that anyone on Basschat isn't familiar with this song, I'm sure that the great majority can play it, and I suspect that many can play it way better than I can.

This is me:

[attachment=77858:06_Down_...tors_Mix.mp3]

My intention is to more-or-less replicate Sparko's line and feel. It's a great bassline, suits the song admirably, is distinctive and fun to play. Even if I (thought I) could improve it, I wouldn't [i][b]dream [/b][/i]of trying.

So ... serious question: How could being a reader or knowing more music theory help me in this situation?

I am NOT having a pop at Doddy or anyone else, and if there is a constructive answer to my question then I would genuinely like to hear it.

My point is that being a serious musician (or at least trying to be one) does not require me to be able to read music or to understand the Circle of Fifths. IMHO of course.

[skej21]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1202143' date='Apr 16 2011, 09:05 PM']I hear this excuse a lot (along with 'I don't need to know this stuff to play in my band'),and I don't buy it. Just because you like
a particular type of music doesn't mean you should avoid an essential part of it's language.
When I started playing I had to use my ear to learn the music that I was into and wanted to play,but I still learned how to associate
the bass with the stave....and believe it or not,it actually helped with learning the music that I wanted to play and made it
easier.[/quote]

+ 1

Also, the other benefit of being able to read is that your ideas are not just restricted to what's in your own head.

You get to see another person's perspective on what they think a bass player should be playing and you often find stuff that influences your lines as a result, whether it's something good that you magpie away, or something that doesn't work and that you can avoid doing in the future.

[oldslapper]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1203777' date='Apr 18 2011, 04:36 PM']It's easy to get excited and push a bit too hard.[/quote]

Is this an opportune moment for a snigger, ....I mean.. I don't have to...just seems a waste otherwise.?