Guitarists who don't know what they are playing

[Bassassin]

[quote name='skej21' post='1203794' date='Apr 18 2011, 04:54 PM']You get to see another person's perspective on what they think a bass player should be playing and you often find stuff that influences your lines as a result, whether it's something good that you magpie away, or something that doesn't work and that you can avoid doing in the future.[/quote]
Any time I listen to any piece of music not composed or arranged by me, or featuring my playing, I get to hear all this, with my ears.

I have done this quite often over the time I've been playing bass - in fact every single time I have heard any piece of music which fulfills the above criteria - and all of it has had an influence, one way or the other, on how I play & what I play.

How would the influence be more profound if I had read it from (as a previous poster eloquently put it) fly-sh!t, rather than simply listening?

J.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1203793' date='Apr 18 2011, 04:54 PM']I don't believe that anyone on Basschat isn't familiar with this song,

So ... serious question: How could being a reader or knowing more music theory help me in this situation?[/quote]

I've got to be honest-I don't know the song.

The way that knowing some theory will help with learning a song is,I find,first of all it makes it easier to work out the root progression even on first listening. Most songs use certain progressions and you can predict where they are going. Then you can find out the rest of the chord.If you know some chord theory it takes away some of the guess work of searching for notes. You know what the chord tones are and what notes are the most likely to be used over the changes.
You could work it out purely by ear,but if you know about some theory it gives you more knowledge to be able to work it out quicker and possibly more accurately.

A combination of knowing theory and listening is what allows me to learn an entire set in an evening or to be able to busk a whole gig.

[skej21]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='1203816' date='Apr 18 2011, 05:10 PM']Any time I listen to any piece of music not composed or arranged by me, or featuring my playing, I get to hear all this, with my ears.

I have done this quite often over the time I've been playing bass - in fact every single time I have heard any piece of music which fulfills the above criteria - and all of it has had an influence, one way or the other, on how I play & what I play.

How would the influence be more profound if I had read it from (as a previous poster eloquently put it) fly-sh!t, rather than simply listening?

J.[/quote]

When did I say that the method I mentioned was the only way? I simply highlighted a benefit.

In direct response to your question. It won't be any more profound for you because you've already discovered the best way for you to learn (by ear).

However, some players on here may not have found the best way for them to learn and may be visual learners and find reading a better option for them.

You can't expect everyone to take the same approach. If I asked you to read instead of using your ear, you'd probably find it hard work and frustrating as it's not the right approach for you. Similarly, some players may find it equally frustrating using their ears instead of reading.

I'm simply showing another perspective so that the players trying discover what is best for them, can know all the options.

Sight reading is not a one-fix solution for everything, but sometimes it helps and sh!tting all over it because it's not for you is pretty selfish and immature.

I thought the point of this forum is to encourage players to develop and improve through other's shared experiences?

Edited April 18, 2011 by skej21

[Wil]

You also get a feel for changes, note choice and the rest with experience. Harmonic dissonance is a good teacher. You might not know what a tetrachord is but that doesnt prevent you from hearing it.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Wil

[Wil]

[quote name='skej21' post='1203827' date='Apr 18 2011, 05:22 PM']I thought the point of this forum is to encourage players to develop and improve through other's shared experiences?[/quote]

As far as I was aware, it was for chatting about bass!

[steviedee]

I play in a band with a guitar player who often doesn't know what key he is playing in or the chords he is playing, I have to say though he is without a shadow of a doubt one of the best guitar players I've ever heard and one of the best musicians I've ever played with to be honest why he isn't playing professionally is a mystery, he has that Chet Atkins, Tommy Emmanuel style down to a tee.

I'm a big fan of guys who can read charts and play from a piece of music and I'm sure [b]everyone[/b] would benefit from that skill but there are guys out there who just have the talent but just didn't have the time to get the theory, I suppose it just takes all sorts.

[stingrayPete1977]

I too have never heard of it but if you gave me the notes coupled to a bit of basic theory learnt alongside I could play it without any rehearsal at all, It wouldn't be as good as you play it but I could do it without making a fool of myself or the band which is very useful for depping or last minute gigs.



[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1203793' date='Apr 18 2011, 04:54 PM']I play bass in a 70s covers band. I could choose lots of different tracks to illustrate where I'm going here, but let's go with [i]Down At The Doctors[/i] by Dr. Feelgood.

I don't believe that anyone on Basschat isn't familiar with this song, I'm sure that the great majority can play it, and I suspect that many can play it way better than I can.

This is me:

[attachment=77858:06_Down_...tors_Mix.mp3]

My intention is to more-or-less replicate Sparko's line and feel. It's a great bassline, suits the song admirably, is distinctive and fun to play. Even if I (thought I) could improve it, I wouldn't [i][b]dream [/b][/i]of trying.

So ... serious question: How could being a reader or knowing more music theory help me in this situation?

I am NOT having a pop at Doddy or anyone else, and if there is a constructive answer to my question then I would genuinely like to hear it.

My point is that being a serious musician (or at least trying to be one) does not require me to be able to read music or to understand the Circle of Fifths. IMHO of course.[/quote]

[Doddy]

[quote name='Wil' post='1203830' date='Apr 18 2011, 05:24 PM']You also get a feel for changes, note choice and the rest with experience.[/quote]

Yeah you do,but it makes things so much easier if you know some basic harmony and chord theory.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='skej21' post='1203827' date='Apr 18 2011, 05:22 PM']When did I say that the method I mentioned was the only way? I simply highlighted a benefit.

In direct response to your question. It won't be any more profound for you because you've already discovered the best way for you to learn (by ear).

However, some players on here may not have found the best way for them to learn and may be visual learners and find reading a better option for them.

You can't expect everyone to take the same approach. If I asked you to read instead of using your ear, you'd probably find it hard work and frustrating as it's not the right approach for you. Similarly, some players may find it equally frustrating using their ears instead of reading.

I'm simply showing another perspective so that the players trying discover what is best for them, can know all the options.

Sight reading is not a one-fix solution for everything, but sometimes it helps and sh!tting all over it because it's not for you is pretty selfish and immature.

I thought the point of this forum is to encourage players to develop and improve through other's shared experiences?[/quote]
And where did I even suggest, anywhere in any of the posts I have made throughout this tediously polarised discussion, that my opinions and experiences relate to anyone other than me? I rather thought I'd mercilessly bludgeoned the point that they do not.

And would you like to point out exactly where I'm "sh!tting all over" anything in a "selfish and immature" way? Or did you resort to being abusive because you are either too lazy & arrogant to be bothered to read the posts you're attempting to attack, or just incapable of conducting a coherent and constructive debate?

J.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Bassassin

[JTUK]

I have to come down on the more educated side myself..just for all the doors that it will open. Now if you don't want that, then no problem, do what you do...but the simple fact is that there are so many gigs out there and it helps if you have as many tricks and skills on your side.
How many times do we get a thread that says..I can't meet musos..well, this is one barrier.
There are not many gtrs round my way that can blag/busk a gig without paying some sort of lip service to theory. I think there are some very very good players but they don't get onstage on some gigs if they don't know a shuffle from a swinger..and cant play in horn keys.
They may not want that..or may be out of their depth, but it means the same thing..they have a limitation that is beyond their control.

I know players who play the London show circuit..and frankly their ability to read fly-sh*t counts for nothing in playing terms..but it opens doors and they get to play with a lot of people way beyond their station. The fact that you wouldn't have them in your band stylistically matters not a jot as they have earnt their living playing music and being well-networked for many a year.

Even if players just want to try their luck at an open mic night, you will need to know a few things..they caller might say this is the key, 12 bar swing with a changearound to the 6th and it needs to make sense. If he gives you a key by offering 3 fingers down you better know you are in Eb major etc etc .. Admittedly, this is more a horn jazz leader type thing but it can be the gig..

If you have good ears you can hear all this... but it doesn't half make it all simpler ..and a lot less stressfull, if you just know, rather than guessing or bluffing.

But hey... if people don't know this or don't think they need to know..that rules them out of competing for a lot of gigs, IMO.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1203910' date='Apr 18 2011, 06:32 PM']One thing about that. You don't [i]Need [/i] to be able to read to learn all that.

I did however settle on one book. At the start it's the usual beginner stuff "This is a pick, this is a bass, these are strings. Then it shows the notes on strings, their names and of course it's location on the stave which is really what I wanted to and wee exercises, which is where I wanted to start.

BUT........

Flip on a a few pages and you get the Scales and things like Traids accompanied with TAB. Oddly not everything but most of the important stuff seemingly..[/quote]

You don't need to read to learn a tune by ear,that's why I never mentioned it.

Most bass guitar books on sale feature tablature for one reason-sales.
I was reading something from Roy Vogt who said that his publisher told him that by including tab in his books it increased sales by something like 40%!!
Pretty much every other instrumental book features notation,and I think it's a shame that many guitar and bass books have to rely on a method that is irrelevant to the rest of the music world,and even the bass/guitar world outside of these books.

[tauzero]

Personally, I'd quite like to be able to read music but I haven't put the time aside to do it in the past.

I play in a ceilidh band. All I actually know about any of the tunes is what key they're in. That's all the guitarist knows too, so we just make it all up (I have worked out a few particular runs for a few particular tunes).

I also play in a couple of covers bands. The guitarist in one is pretty good on his knowledge of chords, keys, etc (though he's not a reader either), the guitarist in the other isn't too bad on majors and minors (although he can get confused between Bm and Bb) but I can sightread hands.

I've also written a couple of songs that I never worked out what the chords were (I have subsequently worked out what they are for one song but not for the other).

As for the oral tradition, aren't the best exponents of it the ladies who can suck a golf ball through a hosepipe?

[Doddy]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1204070' date='Apr 18 2011, 08:13 PM']But the bold bit isn't true. I'm among the ones thats never played with a guitarist that read music. If they wanted a specific line it was wrote out in tab other wise it was just a list of chords. I know one guitarist who can read, but yet uses TABS.

I've know people who can read because they have done Violin or Flute but play guitar from TAB.

The Fact it increases sales but 40% suggest that 40% of the people who learn the theory from these books don't read music and would use TAB in situations outside of the books.[/quote]

I have never known one musician who has been on a gig and been presented with a page of tablature......ever. There are no situations in the gigging world where it is used.

[wateroftyne]

I think Jennifer's comments on page 1 deserve another outing.

It's nice to hear someone from the 'schooled' side of things accept that, quite simply, there are different ways to approach what we do.

[quote name='endorka' post='1200587' date='Apr 15 2011, 12:53 PM']As others have pointed out, not having written notation is far more common in most forms of the music than having written notation. Written notation is prevalent in classical music, musical theatre, some jazz and brass band music. As far as I know, you don't get it much anywhere else.

This doesn't bother me at all. For simple folk tunes it is usually easy enough to pick these up as you go along. For more complex tunes, or if you want to save rehearsal time, then just get the guitarist to record what they are doing beforehand, and you can work it out by ear in advance.

Jennifer[/quote]

[stingrayPete1977]

There is always a stigma with reading (I have been on both sides of this). In most hobbies people want to replicate the pro's in every way that is practical as it's clear these people know what they are doing yet this issue always creates an us and them battle. Is it because it's fairly hard and time consuming? After many years of defending not reading I realised any time even 5 mins on here battling would actually be better spent having a go as there is absolutely nil chance no matter what anyone says of it making me a worse player. After only a few months of not really even spending enough time on notation and basic theory I'm wishing like many others before me that I had started years ago

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1204147' date='Apr 18 2011, 09:05 PM']There is always a stigma with reading[/quote]
To be fair, most of the stigma in this thread seems to be going in the other direction.

[4-string-thing]

The OP should think him/herself lucky..... a lot of folkies don't use standard tuning either... its hard playing along with someone who doesn't know what he's playing and is in DADGAD....

It reminds me of a couple of guitarists I've briefly played with in the past.... one didn't know the name of the chords he was playing, so if there was something I didn't recognise, and asked him what he was playing, he would just say "this" and play it again. Very helpful....

Another one, was left handed but played a right handed guitar upside down, without changing the strings over! Try following him.... Still, at least he knew what chords he was playing!

[stingrayPete1977]

I wish I was better at reading as I'm not good enough to be in the pro reader camp but I have made the mental switch away from the against it party. I don't really get the idea that pro's do everything and non pro's only do cover bands or create their own music by ear (I know it's not that clear cut as such). As a bass player I want to be able to do everything possible which can include even the most basic chord charts via email hours before the gig. These tools can give you the confidence to do it and open up many avenues even on a non pro level. I do some similar gigs to Doddy other than the reading gigs (because I can't) except I don't get paid (partly because I'm a terrible player too ).

I like messing with old cars and have some tools better than my local garage that make jobs easier although they could be done with other tools more slowly if you were careful, Should I sell those tools because I'm not a pro mechanic?

[risingson]

I've been reading this thread with interest, and once again it's polarising opinions.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1204147' date='Apr 18 2011, 09:05 PM']There is always a stigma with reading (I have been on both sides of this). In most hobbies people want to replicate the pro's in every way that is practical as it's clear these people know what they are doing yet this issue always creates an us and them battle.[/quote]

It depends what your definition of 'pro' is. Pino Palladino for example is probably the world's most desirable bass player right now across the broadest of spectrums, and yet his lack or theoretical knowledge is well documented, which leads me on to my main point... if you're a musician with talent, then the basis of that talent is being good at expressing yourself on your instrument, whether you have a piece of music in front of you or not. Whether or not learning to read music is a beneficial thing for you to do is purely down to a musician's present circumstance and/or desire to learn.

Theory is being practiced by everyone who is even vaguely competent on their instrument, usually without their knowledge. Even if they are simply playing root notes and basic pentatonic riffs then the foundations of theory are simply being translated by the player onto the instrument without the means of being able to explain what you're playing and why you're playing it. It's like being able to speak a language fluently but having no idea how to write it down.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1204122' date='Apr 18 2011, 08:50 PM']You forget you are a professional in professional circles. Outside of those circles is a whole different world and arguably a bigger world too.[/quote]

I think that's a point a few us have tried to labour. I don't care if sheet music is handed out at gigs, and I won't get a better gig unless I can read from any angle and in dim light; because that's not where I make my money.

I think tab has it's place. I think it's a great way for beginners or intermediate players, amongst which group I class myself, to quickly get some songs and confidence under the belt. I wouldn't imagine it's the be-all, end-all; but then I'm not looking to put "professional musician" on my tax return.

Yes, it would be good for everyone to read; however, to reiterate, it would be wasted on large swathes of players. If I could borrow some terminology from my own professional, there's little [i]return on investment[/i] - the sheer effort of learning negates or compromises any benefit or utility from the capability... which makes perfect sense if you're looking to maybe stick the odd cover on Youtube; jam with like-skilled friends; etc.

It'd be a much better investment if you were looking turn professional, or simply to up your game for personal fulfilment, etc. You'd have to judge for yourself, which is the precise definition of subjectivity.

I don't like this blanket approach of everyone should read. It's dogma, with all the failings that entails; and, besides, who appointed you to the curia?

Well, this thread summarises why there's quite often f***-all fun to had playing bass.

[stingrayPete1977]

Most of ain't Pino and most of his contemporarys will of earnt a living and funded solo projects from reading gigs. Not that it makes any difference if you want to learn tracks at weekly practice and store them by memory only.

[stingrayPete1977]

I have plenty of fun thanks

[quote name='Gust0o' post='1204172' date='Apr 18 2011, 09:34 PM']I think that's a point a few us have tried to labour. I don't care if sheet music is handed out at gigs, and I won't get a better gig unless I can read from any angle and in dim light; because that's not where I make my money.

I think tab has it's place. I think it's a great way for beginners or intermediate players, amongst which group I class myself, to quickly get some songs and confidence under the belt. I wouldn't imagine it's the be-all, end-all; but then I'm not looking to put "professional musician" on my tax return.

Yes, it would be good for everyone to read; however, to reiterate, it would be wasted on large swathes of players. If I could borrow some terminology from my own professional, there's little [i]return on investment[/i] - the sheer effort of learning negates or compromises any benefit or utility from the capability... which makes perfect sense if you're looking to maybe stick the odd cover on Youtube; jam with like-skilled friends; etc.

It'd be a much better investment if you were looking turn professional, or simply to up your game for personal fulfilment, etc. You'd have to judge for yourself, which is the precise definition of subjectivity.

I don't like this blanket approach of everyone should read. It's dogma, with all the failings that entails; and, besides, who appointed you to the curia?

Well, this thread summarises why there's quite often f***-all fun to had playing bass.[/quote]

[Gust0o]

Good to hear Pete. I had worried that perhaps you didn't.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Gust0o

[risingson]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1204181' date='Apr 18 2011, 09:42 PM']Most of ain't Pino and most of his contemporarys will of earnt a living and funded solo projects from reading gigs. Not that it makes any difference if you want to learn tracks at weekly practice and store them by memory only.[/quote]

I was really just trying to explain that there are a plethora of bass players out there that have various differing levels of theoretical knowledge and have still done completely fine for themselves. I happen to think theory is important and a basic knowledge of it is incredibly helpful, however reading has its place and is a rarity for most bass players to stumble across, usually if they do they are the kinds of players who are actively involved in jazz, television and big band work and are well equipped for such events.

[quote]Well, this thread summarises why there's quite often f***-all fun to had playing bass.[/quote]

Bass is fun! A hell of a lot of fun, no one has to listen to another person tell you what you should and shouldn't be doing and vice versa. There will always be those who think they know better but there's nothing more satisfying than being happy with the musician you are, whether you can read or not and whether you think it's important or not. Music is about feeling, I'd much prefer to feel music than think too hard about how it works.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Gust0o' post='1204189' date='Apr 18 2011, 09:48 PM']Good to hear Pete. I had worried that perhaps you didn't.[/quote]
If you re read my replies I don't tell anyone that they should in a blanket approach, Just the reasons why I have decided to learn. I have never felt that there is often f*** all fun to be had playing bass maybe I have been lucky?