Guitarists who don't know what they are playing

[Gust0o]

[quote name='risingson' post='1204194' date='Apr 18 2011, 09:53 PM']Bass is fun! A hell of a lot of fun, no one has to listen to another person tell you what you should and shouldn't be doing and vice versa. There will always be those who think they know better but there's nothing more satisfying than being happy with the musician you are, whether you can read or not and whether you think it's important or not. Music is about feeling, I'd much prefer to feel music than think too hard about how it works.[/quote]

That's what I'd like to think; and why threads like this inspire such ire in me. Why is it that I can't simply pick the damn thing up, find my own way with it, and just enjoy it.

Oh, but no - you need to learn to read; you need this technique; this piece of kit... eeeeeey by gum. Sometimes.

Pfffff! I'm off for a cuppa. Anyone else take sugar?

[stingrayPete1977]

1 and milky please

[Gust0o]

I've no f***ing biscuits. Sorry lads

[risingson]

[quote name='Gust0o' post='1204206' date='Apr 18 2011, 09:59 PM']That's what I'd like to think; and why threads like this inspire such ire in me. Why is it that I can't simply pick the damn thing up, find my own way with it, and just enjoy it.

Oh, but no - you need to learn to read; you need this technique; this piece of kit... eeeeeey by gum. Sometimes.

Pfffff! I'm off for a cuppa. Anyone else take sugar?[/quote]

Coffee please, don't do tea. What happened to your other avatar Gust0o?? I loved that animated monster, it was the best on the site!

Edited April 18, 2011 by risingson

[Doddy]

Ok.... Let me just say that I don't have a problem with anyone that doesn't read,especially if they can play.My only argument is when people say that it won't benefit them,because I honestly don't know anyone that would say that it hasn't been of some use to them in one way or another. I'm not talking about sight reading the Charlie Parker Omni, I'm talking about a basic understanding.
If you decide that you don't want to do it,fine...but if you say it's because it won't be beneficial to you,I will beg to differ.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1204221' date='Apr 18 2011, 10:10 PM']Ok.... Let me just say that I don't have a problem with anyone that doesn't read,especially if they can play.My only argument is when people say that it won't benefit them,because I honestly don't know anyone that would say that it hasn't been of some use to them in one way or another. I'm not talking about sight reading the Charlie Parker Omni, I'm talking about a basic understanding.
If you decide that you don't want to do it,fine...but if you say it's because it won't be beneficial to you,I will beg to differ.[/quote]

Education and knowledge are not to be feared.

[GarethFlatlands]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='1204228' date='Apr 18 2011, 10:24 PM']Education and knowledge are not to be feared.[/quote]

Unless it's about astronomy and learning your exact significance in the overall scheme of the universe. That stuff is terrifying.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='GarethFlatlands' post='1204234' date='Apr 18 2011, 10:30 PM']Unless it's about astronomy and learning your exact significance in the overall scheme of the universe. That stuff is terrifying.[/quote]
Hey, don't worry about it. We're all omnipotent.

I've got stuff in me that is old and dusty, we are stars....man.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1204237' date='Apr 18 2011, 10:32 PM']And bomb making. Educating yourself on that will but you on the wrong peoples radar [/quote]
I have friends in Clady, I've heared about these misunderstandings.

[stingrayPete1977]

I love the Avatar Steve (well Kate anyway)

[Dad3353]

I'm glad I play drums...

[Gust0o]

[quote name='risingson' post='1204210' date='Apr 18 2011, 10:01 PM']Coffee please, don't do tea. What happened to your other avatar Gust0o?? I loved that animated monster, it was the best on the site! [/quote]

I thought there was a new law that we all had to have hot women, to cover up for being burly men?!

I've got domo kun in my pocket. The raving biscuit won't be gone for long

[Bassassin]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1204221' date='Apr 18 2011, 10:10 PM']Ok.... Let me just say that I don't have a problem with anyone that doesn't read,especially if they can play.My only argument is when people say that it won't benefit them,because I honestly don't know anyone that would say that it hasn't been of some use to them in one way or another. I'm not talking about sight reading the Charlie Parker Omni, I'm talking about a basic understanding.
If you decide that you don't want to do it,fine...but if you say it's because it won't be beneficial to you,I will beg to differ.[/quote]
Seems to me you are talking about two different things - the ability to read notation isn't intrinsic to having a fundamental grasp of musical theory. Without that basic grasp - whether conscious or otherwise - I don't see how it's possible to function as a musician at all so in that respect I'm in complete agreement with you. Regarding reading though, I still struggle to think of a single occasion where being able to read a bass part from a score would have been of any benefit to me!

Anyway, while this debate's been rumbling on, I was occupying myself actually playing my bass a bit - and discovered, quite unrelated to this discussion, that my drummer can actually read music. Wonder if I should learn to write percussion notation just to confuse him? Can't be that hard if drummers can do it...

J.

[grahamd]

[JTUK]

You can be thankful that a lot of drummers don't read but they still need great ears.
And if the drummer doesn't read that rather negates the necessity of anyone HAVING to but the bass player will then only really have bar 1 to pick up the groove otherwise it sounds a lash.

You are still going to have to deal with a few time sigs and feels though and you need to get it right away.
The gtr can hang back on the intro as can the keys a lot of the time, so it is really down to the bass player to get it with the drummer in the first bar. This sets up the whole song and also sets up the gig as the idea is that no one is any the wiser you have just met half the band 30 mins ago.

So, in cases like this..and this is just the local jazz horn playing booker that requires this, this is a decent paying gig that you'll need to cover..if you want to maximise your money with as many acts as possible.

Even soul review type bands round here have a bass pad. Admittedly, it can be funny if everyone is reading it and it feels like crap...but at least it give you a chance. You try playing Copacabana on the fly ha ha it will not be pretty.

I can see both arguements and it is down to the individual which way they play out their hand.

If we are talking about developing and people have lessons for this, nice gear, 2-3 basses and are pretty serious about their playing, then theory is another string as well.

[Bilbo]

I only know one drummer from the old school that could read and groove like a mofo right from the off. HIs name was Ian Thomas.

Reading doesn't cure all ills. It jsut makes somethign a lot easier. I did Jesus Christ SUperstar just before Christmas and we had one rehearsal before the 3 performances so that is 4 run throughs in total. It was ok on the first night, pretty good on the second and we nailed it on the third. Without the reading skills we would have had no chance but the irony is that one of the bass players that toured the show with Lloyd Webber PM'd me here to tell me that they had two weeks of rehearsals before the tour. So, the reading thing is not a replacement for rehearsals, good ears or good feel etc. It is a means of communication that facilitates a more immediate focus on the important details that makes all the difference as opposed to learning the 'big picture' stuff. It means rehearsal/study time is more productive.

[Bottle]

An interesting and thought-provoking thread - great stuff, BC.

I thought I'd add some comments. I don't have a need to lead to sight-read at the moment (and I don't believe the lack of knowledge is holding me back either); I've absorbed enough knowledge and theory through playing in church with some great musicians, being tutored and jumping in on a jam night that I feel confident enough in my playing ability that I can play something in my band context. I agree about the need to have a knowledge of chord shapes and structure i.e knowing the difference between Em and Em7, and the Circle of Fifths etc.

I have the advantage that I have a folder with chord sheets for the music we play (when I say 'chord sheet' I'm referring to a lyric sheet with the chords written out above the words). Often on a Sunday morning I'll turn up without any idea what we'll be playing in a hours' time, and it will also change during the course of a service as we react to the mood. Having the folder is handy, but I don't rely on it, and will fit in with where the band leader is going.

Yes, it's great to have the vocabulary, to explain and express ideas about a bassline - for example if someone gave me the song sheet with an A/C# slash chord, I'd know to play the C# and not necessarily the root note etc. But I also play by feel as well, a couple of weeks ago we entered a period of spontanaeity, with our band leader just using Em as a starting point. It was up to me to come up with a bassline that was appropriate to the mood, and also to lock in with the drummer. It helps to have good communication with the rest of the band. The point I'm trying to make is that the ability to sight-read is irrelevant [i]in this particular situation[/i].

I agree with Doddy's point about having a good grounding in theory, but we should seperate that from the ability to sight-read bass-clef/treble-clef notation, IMHO. I am sure that if I had the inclination to learn another instrument, for example the piano, then I would have to learn to read the dots, no question. Particularly if I was intending to pursue any thoughts of writing my own songs. I'm just open to fact that there are many people with differing abilities and requirements, from bedroom bassists to serious, professional musicians. I know I fall closer to the former, but getting out and making music, and playing with inspirational musicians is what is driving me currently. It's what works for you.

HTH,
Ian

[steviedee]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1204477' date='Apr 19 2011, 09:32 AM']If we are talking about developing and people have lessons for this, nice gear, 2-3 basses and are pretty serious about their playing, then theory is another string as well.[/quote]

Completely agree with this, I was learning to read all be it badly quite recently, but having a family, quite an involved job and playing in two bands limits your time and it's fallen by the wayside a bit. I'd love to be able to look at a piece o music and play it as it stands I can read it but it's not exactly quick!

However, I play and have played with a number of musicians who can and can't read, currently I work with a keyboard player who has a fantastic knowledge of theory is an amazing sought after player but can't read music, I was taken aback when I found it out because the guy is top notch but he never had the opportunity to learn what with one thing and another.

Also I play with a young guy who was up for young trad musician of the year in Scotland who can't read a note, traditional music is different obviously because many of the tunes are passed down but he is amazing on the harp and the button box, I'm sure both these guys would benefit from reading and would make them more employable but I don't know if it would make them discernibly better to the listener.

[Gust0o]

You know, I actually take stuff into work to have a look at on my lunch time or when travelling.

[Bilbo]

I think a lot of the stuff about reading depends on repertoire. I can readily see hown many people would never really see the benefits of reading because they rarely stray out of their comfort zone of covers and popular tunes that everyone knows. If you gig a lot with many different bands, most of which don't play the more common material we all know, then the benfits of being able to read become more apparent. Over the next week or so, I have played five different set lists with three different drummers, three different sax players, two keyboard players, three singers, two guitar players and a percussionist. I could not remember that much material if I tried so I make my notes on the charts and nail the gig. Couldn't do it without the dots. even if its only the breaks etc.

[fatback]

Been learning to read this last seven months, but i know I'll never have a use for it in any setting I'm going to play.

The biggest plus so far is it opens up a huge amount of written material to learn from. But that's it really.

Now some theory is another thing altogether, a must imo.

[JTUK]

[quote name='fatback' post='1204527' date='Apr 19 2011, 10:33 AM']Been learning to read this last seven months, but i know I'll never have a use for it in any setting I'm going to play.

The biggest plus so far is it opens up a huge amount of written material to learn from. But that's it really.

Now some theory is another thing altogether, a must imo.[/quote]


There is reading and reading as well. Mostly a simple chart with chords and repeats and a coda is all you need to be able to follow.
If you get to solo over a sequence it helps if you can count the bars off as well as navigate through the chords.. !!

Excepting the solo, this is what most bands that can crack through a set in pretty double quick time for learning will likely use.
It is a simple navigating tool to save time...

It doesn't make you a better player, but it can't not get you more dates, IMO.

For simple dep type gigs and standard jazzers;
If I had to do a head-count round here, all the horns read and can be pretty hot blowers, IMO.
The best gtrs round here don't use charts but then they can lay-off a tune to suss it out anyway..
Keys are 50-50 but can't ignore theory.

Drummers...? the best readers aren't the best drummers as it happens and maybe it is 50-50 on the bass players, but the readers will edge out the others on the amount of gigs they cover.

You need to be sorted one way or another as no one rehearses these gigs..and you meet and network on the day and you want to get called again.

If you don't do this sort of work or want to do it, then do what you do, but I find that the biggest complaint is not knowing people.
If you can put yourself into a lot of musical situations, you could end up knowing who the better players are, plus they know you so
no one has a problem listening to your ideas because you aren't an unknown entity.

I would guess that most of the people who dep a lot know who they can contact for a new project and they'll end up with a decent band pretty quickly. None of this audtion nonsense..you have gotten past that.. the only thing left to do is get together and decide if the combined chemisty is going to be good.

That is the major benefit IMO.

[Krysbass]

As a music non-reader who’s happy to also admit to not being able to name most of the notes on the bass fretboard (though not saying I’m proud of that) I think my lack of musical theory is due to one simple reason: As a bassist in covers bands and currently an originals band, I’ve never found myself in a situation where I’ve needed it and never had any difficulty in communicating with other musos due to my lack of it.

Believe me – if I thought it would benefit my playing in any tangible way, I would somehow find the time to do some swotting up on it. And that shouldn’t be too difficult for me, because when I was about 12 (a very long time ago) I had to read music to enable me to play clarinet in the school orchestra. But I’ve never needed to read music since, so I’ve totally lost that skill.

The point I’m trying to make is that in most things, most of us tend to learn only what we need to know to enable us to achieve what we want to achieve. – For example; you don’t need to read and digest the entire Haynes manual in order to do as good a job as a qualified mechanic in safely replacing the brake discs on your car.

[oldslapper]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1204525' date='Apr 19 2011, 10:32 AM']I think a lot of the stuff about reading depends on repertoire. I can readily see hown many people would never really see the benefits of reading because they rarely stray out of their comfort zone of covers and popular tunes that everyone knows. If you gig a lot with many different bands, most of which don't play the more common material we all know, then the benfits of being able to read become more apparent. Over the next week or so, I have played five different set lists with three different drummers, three different sax players, two keyboard players, three singers, two guitar players and a percussionist. I could not remember that much material if I tried so I make my notes on the charts and nail the gig. Couldn't do it without the dots. even if its only the breaks etc.[/quote]

That's a good point about repertoire.
I think there's more of a peripatetic approach within the jazz community and you are more likely to be playing different gigs with different musicians, using different keys, arrangements, etc, so at the very least reading charts is a must, at least that's been my experience over past 2 years.

However, the only gig I have ever been presented with dots outside of "jazz" was last autumn. I was depping and the MD shoved the bass line in front of me 10 mins before kick off, so reading was useful. That's in 30 years of playing for money. But, I have never played shows/pits, and never will.


However, I think that's rather a disappointing statement to say that playing covers/popular tunes is within peoples comfort zone, implying a sense of laziness. That's not the case for everyone Bilbo.
For some, reading would not make some "popular" bass lines any easier to learn. The notes do not drop off the page and onto the bass by osmosis. There's still the need to translate onto the fingerboard through technique, listening to yours and other band members parts. I have 1 student who came to me recently, he's a good reader, but finds it difficult to play in bands as he has little aural awareness of others around him, so he steams ahead without listening. We've put the dots aside, and he is learning to listen.

Boys and girls, music is a language...some can read and write but cannot speak but shout, some cannot read and write but speak like the angels.

Reading/theory knowledge is very useful, but not the law.

[Bilbo]

My personal value base on this is simple. I am perfectly well aware of the fact that there are many aspects of being a musician that are not necessarily 'essential' and that players can get away without dealing with. But I am also aware, from my work with offenders, that there is a general tendency amongst young people to try to justify their behaviour particularly when it comes to avoiding working hard at study. Telling a developing player that he doesn't [i]have[/i] to do something is, in most cases, as good as telling him/her to [i]not bother[/i]. The anecdotes about player who can read but can't do something else are missing the point. All players have to be rounded and to be competent in all areas, not just half of them. A great reader that plays out of tune is no more use than an illiterate percussionist to an orchestra. Its about advocating the full basket of comeptences needed to become the best player you can be. In my experience, reading contributes greatly to my ongoing development. I could never do it again and still get better but I have no doubt in my mind that it is more use to me than double thumbing or two handed tapping. That is why I advocate for it. If anyone out there is a 'hobbyist' and has a more casual approach to this, then good for them, but please don't tell people that it is an acceptable way of moving forward. If people get that message early on, they will be coming to me in 10 years time like the raft of other older players I meet saying 'I wish I had.....'