Guitarists who don't know what they are playing

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1204899' date='Apr 19 2011, 04:04 PM']But I am also aware, from my work with offenders, that there is a general tendency amongst young people to try to justify their behaviour particularly when it comes to avoiding working hard at study.[/quote]
Wow... that's totally applicable to the people we're talking about, 'cos they're just like offenders.

Edited April 19, 2011 by wateroftyne

[Wil]

Quite.

And why should you have to justify choosing to develop your theory knowledge or not anyway? It's down to the individual and whatever they choose to do with their own time is fine.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Wil' post='1204909' date='Apr 19 2011, 04:28 PM']Quite.

And why should you have to justify choosing to develop your theory knowledge or not anyway? It's down to the individual and whatever they choose to do with their own time is fine.[/quote]
It seems to me that some people are struggling to accept that, away from their own little world, there a thriving scene that functions quite happily without getting knee-deep in theory.

It might not function in a way that they approve, but function it does.

[oldslapper]

Bilbo, I would never say to my reading student don't bother to read again, he is in his late 40's and came to me saying exactly that "I wish I had learned to play with others, but I find it difficult".
All new students are immediately introduced to basic notation, particularly the young.

As for working with your client group, I too work with same groups facilitating music workshops in prisons.
What do they learn? Very little reading, unless they specifically want or need to.
But they do learn to play an instrument, team work, listening to one another, accepting and embracing other genre's of music, performance, recording, patience, working to deadlines, rehearsal &, very importantly, consequences of not working hard at all these things, not only on themselves, but on the group. All through the medium of music. Recidivism rates are very low for those who engage in these projects.
I would say that sets people up for life wouldn't you? And very little reading involved.

I don't buy this notion that those who do not read or learn theory, or do not wish to, are lazy and bad role models..??

Sorry to OP, as this has strayed off topic.
I will crawl back from whence I came.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='oldslapper' post='1204913' date='Apr 19 2011, 04:33 PM']I don't buy this notion that those who do not read or learn theory, or do not wish to, are lazy and bad role models..??[/quote]

Nor do I, as an absolute, but I do believe that those who do read and learn theory have a stronger work ethic and are good role models. So I advocate accordingly.

Workshop situations are not the same as proper concerted study and fulfil a completely different set of needs. Most prisoners in the system aren't in long enough to learn to read the dots (although I did know a monster flute player in Cardiff who learned on a 15 year stretch).

This thread is about what effect musical ignorance has on people's functioning as players. I find in inhibits most and have done so for decades, If that is my belief, then I have a duty to say so.

[leonshelley01]

I think we also have to take into account most people on the forum probably have a non-music day job, and use bass playing as a social and leisure activity that sometimes maybe raises a little cash for a gig. I know I am.

I don't need to read music to write my own songs, and using tab (heresy!) I am perfectly able to communicate my ideas to the rest of the band. In the covers band, likewise, I use tab and it does me fine.

I am not a professional musician, I am someone who takes pride in playing to the best of my ability in the situations I choose. I am not a session player and I have no desire to play in a situation that requires reading. So according to some this makes me a dabbler, under-acheiver and lazy. I am happy to agree. I play for enjoyment and socialising with friends.

I do agree however that a least a modicum of theory knowledge is important in order to explain ideas and jam with mates.

[oldslapper]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1204925' date='Apr 19 2011, 04:47 PM']Nor do I, as an absolute, but I do believe that those who do read and learn theory have a stronger work ethic and are good role models. So I advocate accordingly.[/quote]

Tell that to the poor sods at St Paul's cathedral school.

[risingson]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1204925' date='Apr 19 2011, 04:47 PM']Nor do I, as an absolute, but I do believe that those who do read and learn theory have a stronger work ethic and are good role models. So I advocate accordingly.[/quote]

Total rubbish. In fact I would further argue that an attitude like this one is much more unprofessional and damaging than someone who is unable to read. I'm happy enough to play with guys that can read and guys that can't, as long as they can a.) play and b.) don't have a view like this one. I've met a lot of sh*t hot readers who have had similar attitudes and to be honest it's the worst kind of snobbery, to the point where I can't stand to work with them.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1204899' date='Apr 19 2011, 04:04 PM']In my experience, reading contributes greatly to my ongoing development. I could never do it again and still get better but I have no doubt in my mind that it is more use to me than double thumbing or two handed tapping.[/quote]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1204925' date='Apr 19 2011, 04:47 PM']Nor do I, as an absolute, but I do believe that those who do read and learn theory have a stronger work ethic and are good role models. So I advocate accordingly.[/quote]

I see where you are coming from,but it's not totally right. It's not about the work ethic,it's about the instant gratification. Someone can work really hard on a Wooten lick for two hours and nail it,and can play it to their band or mates who will be duly impressed...and that's cool. Whereas if someone was to study reading or theory for the same amount of time you will learn more but you won't have anything fancy to show for it at rehearsal. They're putting the same amount of work in but one will have the instant wow factor while the other will benefit more in the long run.....And most people prefer the instant gratification.
Now,if both players split their time doing both,they'd get the best of both worlds. Unfortunately,that often doesn't happen for whatever reason.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1205030' date='Apr 19 2011, 06:08 PM']Now,if both players split their time doing both,they'd get the best of both worlds. Unfortunately,that often doesn't happen for whatever reason.[/quote]

Now that is exactly what Im trying to do which is why I always feel pulled from left to right in these threads. Tonight Im having a night in reading (Just bought a new book with 10 Popular rock songs to learn and although it has Tab Doddy its on a seperate page ) Thursday night Im practicing with the band ready for upcoming gigs, So im trying to do both as best I can which does appear Im the minority. The notation I have written for the two bands Im in at the moment have already been a good resource to be able to return to rather then my poor memory as we have missed a couple of weeks for one reason or another.

Im trying to hold the fort for the pro readers yet I can barely read myself

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='Krysbass' post='1204695' date='Apr 19 2011, 01:05 PM']As a music non-reader who’s happy to also admit to not being able to name most of the notes on the bass fretboard (though not saying I’m proud of that) I think my lack of musical theory is due to one simple reason: As a bassist in covers bands and currently an originals band, I’ve never found myself in a situation where I’ve needed it and never had any difficulty in communicating with other musos due to my lack of it.

Believe me – if I thought it would benefit my playing in any tangible way, I would somehow find the time to do some swotting up on it. <snip>[/quote]
This pretty much sums up where I'm at right now. However...

On Saturday I did a dep gig with 24 hrs notice for a guy who's very well networked (if he wasn't, I'd have blanked him). Whilst the gig went OK, we got compliments, & I got paid, I'd have found it a metric sh!tload easier had I been comfortable navigating a chart (of which several were available).

I've decided that This Must Change.

For the moment, my complete inability to read the dots can stay as it is, as I have no need for it [i][b]at present[/b][/i]. There may come a time when this attitude will change, but I'll deal with that one as, when & if I ever need it.

Another factor in all of this is people's individual learning style. I have great difficulty with 'learning for the sake of learning', but [u]not[/u] when I have a focussed application. I suspect that a good number of the 'antis' here are in the same boat & no amount of proselytising by the 'pros' will change that.

Pete.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1204939' date='Apr 19 2011, 04:59 PM']Stereotype much there Bilbo. No offence but that makes you sound like a condescending twat [/quote]

Moi?

Its more a case of using extreme language for dramatic effect. I rarely do full-on reading gigs either (percentage wise) but I do think that my ability to read is the most universally thing I ever learned to do. I can (could?) play Teen Town and Donna Lee, Joe Frazier, Water On The Brain, Bach, Five G, Motherlode, my fair share of Mark King and Stanley Clarke etc - all the basscentric tricks from the late 1980s etc. I have never played them other than, as Doddy says, to 'impress'. Reading has got me gigs and got me paid and I find, pretty much, that the quality of the music at reading gigs is a couple of notches higher than at the 'feel' gigs.

[Pete Academy]

I'm well late on this thread. I thought it was about guitarists.

I don't read music, but sometimes wish I could.

I honestly think being able to keep time and being able to groove is more important if you're a bass player.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='leonshelley01' post='1204971' date='Apr 19 2011, 05:22 PM']I think we also have to take into account most people on the forum probably have a non-music day job, and use bass playing as a social and leisure activity that sometimes maybe raises a little cash for a gig. I know I am.

I am not a professional musician, I am someone who takes pride in playing to the best of my ability in the situations I choose. I am not a session player[/quote]

That sums me up, Leon. My advocacy is borne of passion and the positives I have experienced from a solid grounding in theory anhd associated reading skills (and, to an extent, the negatives I have experienced from working with bands made up of musicians who can't read/don't know what's happening). What works for other people, doesn't work for me. In truth, I don't give a rat's what approach other have to their playing. I just talk a lot

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1205184' date='Apr 19 2011, 08:48 PM']I'm well late on this thread. I thought it was about guitarists.

I don't read music, but sometimes wish I could.

I honestly think being able to keep time and being able to groove is more important if you're a bass player.[/quote]

Its certanly as important.

[essexbasscat]

Like Pete, I'm late to our bi - monthly punch up on this topic. Are we at round 12 or 13 ? I can't remember

[RhysP]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1204925' date='Apr 19 2011, 04:47 PM']....I do believe that those who do read and learn theory have a stronger work ethic and are good role models.[/quote]
This is certainly true for me - I can't read music & know hardly any theory & it's purely because I'm a lazy c***.
Never made any excuses to the contrary - it's something I really wish I could do but I simply just cannot be arsed putting the work in.
For the amount of time I've been playing (over 30 years) I'm a sh*t bassist & it's all down to extreme laziness. If somebody told me tomorrow that in order to keep playing I'd have to study theory & reading for an hour a day I'd just give up.

I'd very probably be a sh*t role model too.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='1205195' date='Apr 19 2011, 08:54 PM']Like Pete, I'm late to our bi - monthly punch up on this topic. Are we at round 12 or 13 ? I can't remember [/quote]

Do you mind? This is my second favourite argument

The other one is why Jazz is better than everything else

[Bilbo]

[quote name='RhysP' post='1205198' date='Apr 19 2011, 08:57 PM']This is certainly true for me - I can't read music & know hardly any theory & it's purely because I'm a lazy c***.
Never made any excuses to the contrary - it's something I really wish I could do but I simply just cannot be arsed putting the work in.
For the amount of time I've been playing (over 30 years) I'm a sh*t bassist & it's all down to extreme laziness. If somebody told me tomorrow that in order to keep playing I'd have to study theory & reading for an hour a day I'd just give up.

I'd very probably be a sh*t role model too.[/quote]

But the world can always use another honest man

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1205188' date='Apr 19 2011, 08:49 PM']In truth, I don't give a rat's what approach other have to their playing.[/quote]

You should put this philisophy into practice. If you'll excuse the pun.

[stingrayPete1977]

Well I just learnt "sittin' on the dock of the bay" in G maj from notation only in the last 45 mins and I only started reading properly a few months ago and I havent put as much time in as I would of liked either. It sounds like it should and certainly would be better than the blag version I would of tried before. Its easy enough for me to noodle my own version to the chords above each bar which I guess even that would be ok for some gigs but Im trying not to cheat! This is the problem with learning 20 years after learning the bass as I can guess most of the changes anyway although there are subtle notes that I certainly wouldnt of added or left out for that matter by ear only.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='Bloodaxe' post='1205148' date='Apr 19 2011, 08:13 PM']Another factor in all of this is people's individual learning style. I have great difficulty with 'learning for the sake of learning', but [u]not[/u] when I have a focussed application. I suspect that a good number of the 'antis' here are in the same boat & no amount of proselytising by the 'pros' will change that.

Pete.[/quote]

I think the one thing I disagree with about that is that there are no "Antis"! There are people who, for whatever reason, do not read and are (largely) happy with their playing & progress. I think it's fair to say that none of them have suggested that it's the readers who have got it wrong and are nothing but lazy wannabes with no serious commitment to music. The negativity and bias in this thread has been strictly one-sided.

I suppose it's interesting that I started out learning to read music for the sake of it - the vagaries of the 16-year-old attention span soon made me realise I progressed faster & had a lot more fun playing along to Rattus Norvegicus. If I'd persisted & learned the skill, I very much doubt I would regret it - although I'm not sure what I'd ever have actually [i]done[/i] with it.

J.

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='1205249' date='Apr 19 2011, 09:38 PM']I think the one thing I disagree with about that is that there are no "Antis"!
J.[/quote]
I only adopted that (after much pondering & crossing out) as 'Can't See The Point Of It As It Applies To Me-ists' was, I felt, a tad on the long side.

P.

[leschirons]

I would guess that most of the members here who say that they have no theory probably actually do have a fair amount under their belts albeit subconcious. I learned to read at 8 years old and used that skill once, aged 10 in the school orchestra (violin) From 15 years onwards, I just played. I could not read nowdays even if my life depended on it.

I would place myself in the intermediate bracket when it comes to playing, certainly no higher, but I enjoy what I do and, along with the acoustic duo thing I do with the wife, I'm in six bands at present. Some with a few gigs and some with lots. I'm not in any situations where reading is required and although I do wish I had continued to read (for my own sense of achievement) I have never needed it in the last 50 years as I enjoy playing covers and it's not been required. Yes, I probably am lazy but I don't have a problem getting the gigs I enjoy. My biggest problem is not being able to say no.

I have played with musicians who read and have had both good, and terrible experiences. The terrible ones were usually either down to them not being able to actually play very well, or trying to casually start conversations where they could talk about their reading and theory skills. From time to time, one does encounter a certain snobbery attached to reading. I see this as their problem, not mine. If I don't know a number, I'll learn it by ear. It's never been a problem in the past and I don't foresee it being one in the future due to what I enjoy doing and who I enjoy doing it with.

There are many "journeymen" on this site who can do the job with the experience they've gained over the years and 50% of that experience is probably subconcious theory.

Many here play for relaxation / therapy / fun / socialising etc. The thought of learning to read would probably spoil all that in one swoop. If you need it for your gigs / career, self achievement, fine, learn. If you don't, just enjoy playing. The only rule is that there are no rules to enjoying music. You can do that at any level as long as you are content with where you are.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='leschirons' post='1205291' date='Apr 19 2011, 10:26 PM']I would guess that most of the members here who say that they have no theory probably actually do have a fair amount under their belts albeit subconcious. I learned to read at 8 years old and used that skill once, aged 10 in the school orchestra (violin) From 15 years onwards, I just played. I could not read nowdays even if my life depended on it.

I would place myself in the intermediate bracket when it comes to playing, certainly no higher, but I enjoy what I do and, along with the acoustic duo thing I do with the wife, I'm in six bands at present. Some with a few gigs and some with lots. I'm not in any situations where reading is required and although I do wish I had continued to read (for my own sense of achievement) I have never needed it in the last 50 years as I enjoy playing covers and it's not been required. Yes, I probably am lazy but I don't have a problem getting the gigs I enjoy. My biggest problem is not being able to say no.

I have played with musicians who read and have had both good, and terrible experiences. The terrible ones were usually either down to them not being able to actually play very well, or trying to casually start conversations where they could talk about their reading and theory skills. From time to time, one does encounter a certain snobbery attached to reading. I see this as their problem, not mine. If I don't know a number, I'll learn it by ear. It's never been a problem in the past and I don't foresee it being one in the future due to what I enjoy doing and who I enjoy doing it with.

There are many "journeymen" on this site who can do the job with the experience they've gained over the years and 50% of that experience is probably subconcious theory.

Many here play for relaxation / therapy / fun / socialising etc. The thought of learning to read would probably spoil all that in one swoop. If you need it for your gigs / career, self achievement, fine, learn. If you don't, just enjoy playing. The only rule is that there are no rules to enjoying music. You can do that at any level as long as you are content with where you are.[/quote]Amazing post.